Friday, January 28, 2011

Will India Ever Need The F-35?

Here's some more fuel for the mildly irksome "F-35 for India" story. The Pentagon's undersecretary for acquisitions Ashton Carter has told Defensenews that India is welcome to participate in the F-35 Lightning-II programme and later acquire it. Participate? Yeah, like we don't have enough problems, Ash.

Defensenews.com also quotes Pentagon spokeswoman Cheryl Irwin as saying: "If, at some point down the road, India were interested in purchasing JSF from us, then we would engage the Indians in an open, transparent manner at that time. But this would obviously be something that the Indian government would have to decide it wanted or needed." Um, obviously is right.

Let me know what you think. I've heard some pretty good arguments for and against (mostly against, at least so far). Vote below and share your thoughts in the comments.


60 comments:

Anonymous said...

Well, For some who are against the F-35, please read Ajai Shukla Blog, where he writes an interesting article on F-35 for India. After reading that article and J-20 recent entry, I would say buy F-35. Having said that, F-35 would have been Ideal for IAF had it been available NOW. PAK FA, F-35, AMCA would have made IAF are very potent force. We could have scrapped MMRCA and bought F-35.

Hope to have a decent debate and please do not use foul language. We are much better than that!

Cheers,
Bharath

Anonymous said...

given the problems with the f35 and its escalating cost, it wont be a wise choice.. however media will be happy as they like to keep there mouth at US balls.

Paul said...

USA is not a fool to bet the future USAF fighters aircraft's (excluding F22) on F35, if F35 is not good enough then USA will even loose in global arms market.

For India F35 is the perfect choice for a strike aircraft. Knowing about Russian and US aviation will help us achieve better results in AMCA program.

Rituraj said...

Now that they are ready for it, we should go for it, it'll be awesome having both FGFA and F35!

Madhav said...

Yes. We can use it but only if we can get the software codes and are allowed to make modifications to it like Israel does.

Anonymous said...

Well, buying fighter jets is not like buying Ipod or laptop every time a new model is launched in the market. Imagine the cost of spares, engine, weapons we will need to buy (due to incompatibility with Russian makes). Also US won't give us TOT (even 50%) for radar etc.
Defending a country does not mean going on a splurging spree but hone the aircraft you have to match up the next generation. Only when a generation is passed we could think of buying the next gen. jets.
Right now, we are already making FGFA with Russia what is the need for F-35 (which is super costly).

mathew dallas said...

@ shiv
You have opened up an interesting debate. Though it has been done before it is still interesting because it beats boredom. Let us not waste time talking about the pros and cons of the F-35( I personally don't like it). But it is the larger picture, the strategic alliance US and India has or is taking against China. We the public will never know but it is I believe a done deal(between MMS and GW), to buy the F-16 and onto the F-35. The F-16 is still the best buy but then it has the, old airframe stigma. But then it makes sense because I believe that Lockheed will transfer the whole plant to India. The deal will be even better if India gets finally to the F-22 bypassing the f-35. PM is definitely going for PAK-FGFA, F-35(F-22?), AMCA combo.Till then it will be SU30MKI, F-16 and GRIPEN combination and maybe the LCA will be killed.The F-22 needs to be in the IAF inventory at any cost, that is the only aircraft that can keep the RED ARMY FROM TAKING ARUNACHAL PRADESH.Just my opinion.

Aditya said...

The F-35 has been dying slowly since the programme began: It is overweight, underpowered, seriously questionable in terms of performance parameters, and possessing of strike and interdiction capacities that are actually lesser than those of existing 4/4+ generation aircraft. Other partner nations have also identified these problems, and have begun slowly cutting down on their orders.

The philosophy of the F-35 is based around 'STEALTH = EVERYTHING', a shout back to the sixties American philosophies, when 'MISSILE = EVERYTHING'. Look how that worked out. The VTOL F-35B has been put on 'probation', suffering from problems that run deep into the core design of the aircraft rather than faulty individual components. It's got performance that doesn't enable it in out-turning most existing A2AMs and SAMs or out running most 4/4+ generation fighters. And it has an internal bay that holds approximately half of what the F-22/T-50 hold. Now, in terms of weaponry that is between 3-4 A2Gs/Iron bombs at the most. Underwing carriage is possible of course, but compromises stealth: exactly what is the point of a 'stealth' strike aircraft that can't carry enough munitions without loosing it's 'stealth' aspect?

It just seems like the only reason the US government is suddenly proposing Indian involvement is to make sure the 300 billion dollar project does't suffer a premature death. Too much money's been pumped into it to declare it a failure now. It reminds me, in that sense, of the Tejas.

APA have analysed the F-35. They are fairly neutral, if critical, in their observations: http://www.ausairpower.net/jsf.html

Anonymous said...

nice one Shiv

Anonymous said...

My name is Ujjwal Singh :
In the present scenario i do not think india needs F-35 my reasons are:
1.India is already going for fgfa and mmrca that accounts for more than 40bn$ and F-35 will only add up to that and even push it to the limit.
2.It will be death blow to our own amca program,wich i think india should go for.
3.Its still very costly and american hagemony makes very difficult for TOT.
Now all that said but i think f-35 is a potent aircraft for our navy rather than air force my reasons are:
1.Since the aircraft for our first aircraft carrier has been chosen but for the second carrier an aircraft like F-35 is a great option not only it is a stealth plane but also small in size and needs less runway or not at all to take off and land.it will also give the option for the navy to put more aircraft in a carrier.Seeing India naval needs in present and future F-35 is the answer as fgfa will be very heavy and big for a carrier and amca is a long way to go.
2.it's not too well suited for airforce as they will then have to operate 3 5gen plane that will be a nightmare for IAF since these are very complex engineering.And even with J-20 in scenario i think IAF is more vaunerable to chinese plane in present than it will be in future and regarding pakistan they dont have the required economical strength to maintain a 5gen plane.
3.USA is more interested in navy to navy cooperation and so is India with USA hence induction of f-35 will lead to a comapbility in operation but all this depends how much far USA congress is going to go with India when it comes to TOT as the cold war era thinking still prevails in the pentagon so this can only be defined in the times to come.
Hence my view navy should go for f-35 if things are favourable.
@shiv:shiv i am a huge fan of your blog and even though i get very few time for net the one thing i always do is read your blog.keep up the good work shiv.
And also if its possible for you than i think you should make a documentary or something which shows how india submarine force is depleting and the things which are hindering its inductions and the threat india is in if nothing is done as should have been,and remind the politicians its the strength of our armed forces that they we held our heads high and they should get above their own bullshit and start doing some constructive work to give strength to our armed forces.

the terminator said...

India doesn't need and can't afford to have a good number of F35s considering its exorbitant cost and other sanction prone and the excessive misplaced love the Americans they have for the global terrorist export state of Pakistan.

What India needs for the next 10 years is a potent force (need not be super 5th generation aircrafts) that is readily available among the MMRCA contenders.

India needs at least a defensive/offensive force of at least 60 squadrons to be able to meet the challenges posed by the Paki-Chinki axis.

Incidentally it needs to ramp up the depleting submarine force to a credible level to counter the combined forces of the dragon and the TSP beggars.

When FGFA and AMCA materialises in great numbers, they would be more than enough to take on the J20 of the PLA air force.

Anonymous said...

The question is does anybody NEED a fighter with the capabilities of the F-35? And the answer would be Yes. However, the cost of acquisition would be too high. The reason why the US is offering the F-35 is multi-faceted. First they want to prop up their defense industry. The F-35 cost of development is estimated to have risen by 50% and they have already budgeted an additional $3 Billion. The US govt. is keen on having others foot this bill or at least a part of it by asking them to buy it even if they don't really need it; like the Canadian Air Force. The TOT they may promise India, would never be what they would lead us to believe. The advanced technologies that the F-35 has is similar to the F-22 and there are countries that would kill to get it. The other part of this offer is that it won't end with the purchase. As we know, an aircraft purchase means 10's of millions more, per aircraft, flowing to the OEM for maintenance contracts and parts. In the end, any Air Force that buys the F-35 will be fettered by dependence on a World power that has an ulterior motive and a long-term agenda even while seeming to offer aid or in this case the F-35.
India may need an aircraft like the F-35, but not the F-35. India and Indians will be better off in the long to develop its own technology.

Anonymous said...

USA want us to scuttle AMCS and FGFA they had this experience that deniying anything India... is counter productive... IGMDP, Tejas, Arihant, etc... Best they understood do the British Raj did to India... enslave to thier products... and get the moola for enslaving... nothing new... Hope netas & uniformed personal won't fall for the green bucks on offer as in the case of sukna and adarsh...

Anonymous said...

We should not let our ego come in front of us and deny this opportunity. we should get whatever good weapon we can get from anywhere. i agree F 35 wont be a good combat fighter but with its awesome range of sensors it can be used to multiply the capabilities of the MCRA jets that are being purchased. So if it were my decision, i would say go for it!

Mirza said...

Did not it is come with strings attached like buy F16/F18 first than we negotiate about JSF.

I am little apprehensive about strings than the JSF

Hardik Patidar said...

why should we beg...
instead we should focus on AMCA
and FGFA
they will be enough if implemented in time.

Anonymous said...

India needs F 35.
1) After 20 years of developing India comes up with a Mig 21++ plane. So which generation will be AMCA (it’s not even at embryonic stage yet)? I do know that crossing the first hurdle is the most challenging part but i don’t have much faith in govt controlled largesse (DPUs) to come up with an above average 5th gen fighter.

2) Tejas 2 will not be proper Indian 4th gen fighter if the engine is not Indian. Can Kaveri be ready in that time frame? I think not.

3) Squad strength. Horror Horror!!!!!!!!!
Any fine day entire Mig 27&29 can be grounded.

3) PAK FA, only the Russians know what they will dish out to Indians. And considering the fact that HAL has had no say SO far in how things go, better to get something ALMOST tried and tested.

4) If India can host CWG and be hopeful of staging the Olympics, i don’t think money is an issue here. All our latest acquisitions are woefully overpriced and we give a hoot, whether they are the Harpoons, the C130s, the Subs or Mirage (Rejig). Even at 250mil a piece India can afford 60 F35 without batting an eyelid. And damned be those 250 mil Indians living on $ 1 a day.

Cex Fable & Gas

BigLulli said...

No you don't but they need your money.

Anonymous said...

no! no! nononnono!! its too high tech to beat the pakis..At the moment we don't need it!!!

who is ths guy? said...

a drama-participant-US,CHINA

US-to china-hello chinese,how are you?everything is fine with ur J-20 na??ok..go ahead with ur j-20(i mean ur xerox copy of our stealth)and we will pretend that we did know nothing..ok..gates will say that too to you..
CHINA--ok..we are fast copying and giving one or two COPY to pakis too.
US-do it before india do some homework(no real job just paper design of paper plane) on FGFA..
AND test ur J-20 as fast u can.so that india can change its MMRCA plan/instead developing a finished plane(pakfa) with russians, they buy our F-35..oh we will lure them to participate(i mean only by giving us money)with our programme..
CHINA-yess graet job uncle sam..we will divide the world and sell our hardwares to opponents

audience-INDIAN TAXPAYERS(LIKE ME AND MY 1.2 BILLION FELLOW COUNTRYMEN)

Payeng said...

My take F-35 would be a fine for The Navy although I think India will not gain much experience being a part of development or just merely participating in the program, and that wont help much for India to be a self reliant in aerospace R&D and indigenous military aircraft program, While India have multiple fighter aircraft program like the FGFA partnership, AMCA and the HAL-Tejas Mk-II on the go, merely buying or participating on the F-35 program wont yield much result or even hamper indigenous efforts of indigenous fighter developments, but I feel the F-35 would be a prospective aircraft for the future Aircraft carriers of the Indian Navy.
I think India should participate in the program as a parallel development along with the naval Tejas program or until indigenous carrier based fighter program matures.

Practical me said...

as a lay man if one looks at the pics of F-22/F-35 vs PAK-FA the latter two definitely look more stealthy then PAK-FA.Pak-FA is too huge to be stealthy!! Am not an aerospace engineer so maybe am wrong in my judgement.. to be honest am not too convinced by PAK-FA and it did not attract half of the attention that J-20 was able to catch! so my vote goes to (Maybe)

Vivek said...

The Indian Air Force doesn't need the F-35. Since the MRCA plan has already come too far to be cancelled now and the PAK-FA is set for induction in another 7-8 years, there isn't a lot of scope for the F-35.

The Indian navy on the other hand is an ideal customer. The F-35C will be a generation ahead of the MiG-29Ks and N-Tejas and a perfect fit for the 60kt IAC-2 along with an American made elecromagnetic catapult. As things stand the naval-PAK-FA isn't likely to be available for active service until well after 2020. Maybe even 2025.

Anonymous said...

We do not need any MMRCA anymore. Buy F 35 instead. Send all your egineers to USA and make them learn

Anonymous said...

Do we need the F35? The answer is a definitive YES. Why? Bcoz it is the only VSTOL a/c in the world after the Harrier (which will be retired pretty soon). In modern warfare the 1st casualty will be the runways and highways. If they are rendered useless (as they will be) then no matter whether you have F22 or T50, all of them will be literally sitting ducks. This was precisely how Israel won the 1967 6 days war and how we won the war in less than 2 weeks in 1971. Recent Gulf wars are also excellent examples.

F35 is the only a/c that can be shared by Army/Navy/Airforce due to it's VSTOL capability. 2 or 3 sqdns
will be more than enough for India and can be shared by the three defense services. F35 can also operate from any one of India's 4 planned LPDs.

F35 is the ideal a/c for forward locations where there are no runways or due to difficult terrain
quite impossible to have one.

Finally, T50 or F22 are air superiority fighters, they are not strike fighters. Whereas F35 is dedicated for this role. AMCA is a multi role jet.

In a nutshell India needs at least two to three squadrons of F35 to be shared by Army/navy/IAF.

joygoswami said...

Indication: DOES IT MEAN THE THEIR F-16/18's HAVE LOST OUT OF MMRCA ? LOOKS LIKE A LAST DITCH EFFORT BY "ANKIL" SAM. Well, honestly it is a temptation, BUT ALL THE GLITTERS IS NOT GOLD, "ANKIL" IS NEVER TO BE TRUSTED THAT WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TOLD.

Anonymous said...

Strike when the iron is hot. Due to high cost and few glitches, countries are planning to pull out of the prog (like Turkey) or cut down targeted numbers. USA's economy is just emerging from a severe recession and they have spent far too much money on this project to scuttle it now. Looking at LM and Boeing's capabilities we know they will make this a/c a success. This is the ideal time to negotiate a better deal for ourselves in this project. Letting go of this golden opportunity will be like shooting ourselves on the foot (which we have always been doing due to apathetic MOD and Defense Services).
Joining this project will also make us a stronger ally of the West who are our largest trading partners. There are lots of indirect benefits that will accrue if we decide to participate in this programme.

Anonymous said...

F-35 is in the same laegue of stealth fighters just like the f-117some day a paki or a chinki SAM will knock it of the skies then we will say what the hell why did we get the stealth if it cannot beat a SAM. India Has a lot of money but a better way to showcase it is to have better infrastructure development of its human resources OH some long range nuclear tip missiles and nuclear sub and a radar system that can beat so called stealth

Rahul said...

We desperately need a VSTOL Multi-Role Aircraft & F-35 Lig.II would be perfect replacement for our existing Jump-Jets a.k.a "Sea Harriers".

Of course, rather than putting these mean machines under Air Force command structure, it should be integrated with Indian Naval Air Arm.

hardik said...

if we getting the new batch of sukhoi 30 mki for 100 million a pop then why not go in for a 5th gen fighter of nearly the same price. vtol version can be quite handy for replacing old harriers whats say?

Anonymous said...

Shiv,

How many Chinis and Pakis are there among the "Nay" sayers?
Can we get some info about the nationality of those casting their votes on this critical issue?

Anonymous said...

Anon 5.20 PM,

That F117 that was brought down by the Serbs was actually a publicity gimmick to show "stealth fighters" are not invincible.
The fact is that jet was tracked by the Russians the moment it took off from it's base in Italy. They were able to detect it using low frequency radars and shot not one by several missiles.
Pulling of such a stunt is quite possible during peace time. But during war such antics may not be possible as forces allied to the enemy will not be allowed anywhere close to such bases.
The 1st Gulf war owes it's success largely due to F117s.

DHRUV said...

for our navy it will be great to have these a/c or i can say ideal but for airforce i will definately say a big noo..... And that too only when usa is selling these planes on our terms.agar kharab ho gaya to banana bhi to padega.lets see what happens

Aroop Gohain Baruah said...

we can consider the f35 for the navy as it has limited range and endurance than PAKFA which will be more suited for the Air Force. but i doubt if our netas,babus or self serving generals,admirals & marshals really understand strategy. for eg. i can never really understand how they entered into a deal with France for Scorpene subs without AIPs wheras pakistan is installing them on their Agostas. Can somebody enlighten me on this?

Anonymous said...

JSF Production Takes $11.5 Billion Hit

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/asd/2011/01/28/02.xml&headline=JSF%20Production%20Takes%20$11.5%2%200Billion%20Hit&channel=defense

Mr. Ra said...

If technically the demand of F-35 is decreasing and even then its price is increasing, then the US economy may be swirling in some fishy mode.

Why suddenly the blue chip shares of F-22 and F-35 have started hovering on the roads for sale to India. Is there something going wrong with India. What new developments have abruptly downgraded F-22 and F-35 in to second grade Russian technologies enabling them fit to be dumped to India.

Notwithstanding the numerous delays, the success of Tejas has imparted India with the confidence, capabilities and opportunity of expansion in to Tejas-mk2 and AMCA, which US alone is able to understand and appreciate and not our insiders.

If US purchases Tejas, we shall purchase F-35 in same total prices as a mark of return of barter trade. Lol...

Anonymous said...

This is a golden opportunity that comes once in a lifetime. Once the global economy rebounds, we may not get such lucrative offers. Both F22 and F35 are pretty much in the advanced stage. If there are glitches in F35, they will be ironed out. This only serves as a reminder to those who are constantly criticizing Tejas over it's lengthy development period.

Our participation in the development of F35 will give valuable insights to AMCA project. The biggest advantage that India can offer to F35 programme is allowing complete manufacture of this jet in India. This will bring down the cost of F35 drastically. Escalating cost of F35 happens to be it's Achilles heel. US companies are opening major R&D centers in India to take advantage of highly competent talent available at low price. This talent pool can contribute in a major way in both the development and manufacture of the jet, thereby controlling the overall cost of F35 programme. India will not only gain capabilities by partnering with other countries in this project but it may also generate much needed jobs in high tech industries.

I am rooting for F35B (VSTOL) although it is less capable than F35C. F35C is not as versatile as F35B. F35B has the potential of being the backbone of India's defense.

anup said...

If we get naval F-35 as some people have proposed,then wont we be leaving the task of fleet defence to anti air missiles on the ships alone?isnt that dangerous? Correct me if i am wrong, but isnt defence of the fleet from air attacks also part of naval fighter job description?
Also, i am of the opinion that F-35 doenst have the range to be an effective carrier borne strike aircraft, as it lacks the range and payload required. In the future, due to incresing range of sensors and anti ship missiles,air craft carriers will be pushed farther away from the shore,long legs for a carrier borne air craft will be a must.

Arihant said...

Oh please, not another massively expensive purchase, we're not looking to invade China for effs sake. How about better pay and standards for the armed forces just in case we have money available within the defence budget ..

R said...

ONLY for the NAVY.

Anonymous said...

The Indian Army is fat, bloated, racist, corrupt and obsolete. It is a major drain to the exchequer. For last more than 40 years (almost 1/2 century) we have not fought any war and chances of fighting one seems remote as no one can afford to fight one(recent War on Terror will bear this out).
What is the need of a million+ strong army during peace time? India is a poor country. We should make it compulsory for everyone to undergo military training, so that during times of war, we can get ready conscripts. This will save necessary funds for R&D and infrastructure which is needed urgently and something which can't be ramped up in a moment's notice. The strength of the Army should be halved. This will free up funds for better pay and perks to defense personnel and thereby get the best and the brightest. We must use the Israeli recruitment process for our armed forces, particularly IAF. We must identify potential talent in schools and colleges and approach them with an offer for a career in the armed forces. This method will ensure identification of right talent and a talent pipeline.

Anonymous said...

@Atditya (6:06 AM): Your arguments are accurate and are right on the money. Actually, the JSF is an obscenely overpriced and underpowered piece of junk, fit for psy-ops and PR campaigns to con gulliable and corrupt powers-that-be in tin pot corrupt banana republics like India. I have some very detailed analysis and summarizing diagrams that highlight in a very compelling manner the fact that the JSF is unfit for air superiority missions as well as deep penetration strike against worthy opposition. For starters, its radar aperture is severely limited by its nose geometry, its radar power is severly limited because of inadequate cooling capacity, and the engine thrust mass flow is pretty adversely affected by the design of the inlets. Is there any chance I can post these on this forum? The JSF consortium is tottering with Turkey most likely opting out. Then there are the usual threats, hidden road blocks/red herrings, and tantrums,one has come to expect when dealing with the US in defense matters. What would happen if say India decided to go in for another round of N-tests to validate/modify/correct the Shakti series? You can bet your bottom dollar that every senator and member of the US Congress from Hicksville will be clamoring for sanctions! Can the Indians risk a substantial portion of the IAF's combat capability given these facts?

Artanis said...

Answer is both YES and NO as it will depend on future situations but it is more of a Yes simply because it is good to have option and have a backup plan.

Some points that come to mind-

1- Pardon the price comparisons as J-20 and FGFA price details are confirmed right now. As much as I adore FGFA it will most likely see a cost hike. It is only natural and is common in military around the world.

2- If you see the US armies' cost projections for future the F-35 is bound to have somewhat reduced cost in future as the scale of production rises.

3- F-35 means a little more than just the fighters it also means cutting edge avionics and flight technologies at your disposal.

4- Most important thing is out of all MRCA candidates IMHO F-18 is best option simply because of its proven design and already integration of cutting edge avionics like AESA while other contenders do offer same they themselves are in process of developing/refining it. Oh, and US is offering us the latest version of F-18 the E/F variants which happen to use same engine as G-414, as Tejas.

So we get option of F-35 for selecting what we already would have selected. Sounds good to me!

One more thing I would like to add is the Tech access. This deal gives us political clout to get more tech out of US like Javelins, P-8s and The Apache Longbow of which the USA is offering the latest version which they themselves are just inducting in their forces. Remember it is easy to ignore tech aspect but when we lose access what happens is extensive delays like the one in Tejas(I am proud of Tejas BTW). We reinvented FBW and lost around 5 years just because we lost access to tech.

Anonymous said...

@Artanis: You staated "We reinvented FBW and lost around 5 years just because we lost access to tech.". This "reinventing" of the FBW which you wail about did more to develop an Indian aerospace industry than you could possibly imagine. I'm in the busines of these things and speak not as a keyboard warrior. The quad-redundant FCS on the LCA is even more advanced than that on the SU 30 MKI, Gripen NG, or EF Typhoon. These types are rule based expert systems and are NEVER parted with for love or money. BTW, the FCS is stipulated to be modified for implementation on a very potent UCAV in a joint project with another country. I forgot the name of the country or the UCAV, but if you wish, do look around (i.e. Google) and figure out as to which existing UCAV design has the characteristics of relaxed stability?

Rahul said...

stealth technolgy is not invinceble!it is fairly visdible too....enough for afghan cave men talibanis to shoot down the stealth bomber with shouldrr launched stingers....which is good platform! they wouldnt be so fair to sell it to us if it werent junk! okay even if ''junk is a n exxageration it aint good something we badly need...lets continue with indigenous programs....induct more sukhois....fgfa's,mmrca planes sukhois, IAF is going on the right track....52% people used thier brains not thier eyes....its an eye catching machine....the US amry wasnt that happy with its performance either...lets not fall for advertising & propaganda! we saw black hawkes get shot down with rpgs in somlia....so come on its a good aircraft...cobra got shoot down by farmers with ak's in Iraq war...i saw CNN war coverage/aljazeera too!...so its true! lets not fall fopr publicity or anything else! we are Indians we will fight when need be whehter we have stealth or not eventually numbers will win...this not spartan age...so u can still be good competition the battlefield with soviet era weoponary too it will be tough at the beginning but if ur heavily equipped in numbers u can bring down planes kill tanks etc...merkeva israeli tanks have a weakness to russian made rpg's!hezbolla used it & r loving it... its an advanced tank...so just chill...we can do with what we have we must without begging or falling for this shit cause u cant be a wuperpower by pumping billions into US economy,...remember they are our competion too...they were our enemis & they can still be if they choose too! Jai Hind!

Artanis said...

@anonymous at 7:00 pm- You misunderstood me. I am VERY proud of Tejas and the FBW we developed (I even mentioned it) but what I was trying to say that in todays world of rapidly changing tech you cant afford to lag behind. Also, I never said India should go ahead for F-35 but I was pointing out the benefit of having a backup plan as the developments often fall behind schedule. If FGFA is delayed 5 years then wouldn't it be nice to have a option?
I am proud of AMCA (an Indian FGF that we are developing on our own) but its expected date 2020 seems.... well a little bit rosy since it is still in pre-alpha phase.
And lets face the truth the US in aircraft tech and Russia in missile tech are wayyy ahead of us (and everybody else) right now. We will match them one day but as of now we have to rely on them. Wasting money on foreign products is bad but whats worse is ignoring current needs in hope of indigenous products. Our air force is at critically low strength right now because of those policies.

sanu said...

E b koi puchhne ka baat he babua?eb to aur zyada jarurat he jab hamar padosi j20 banane ka kosis ma laga he,aur ek bar oo bana le to hamar dusra padosi ko wo bas milne ka deri he!!

Thats my take,if our enemys have got or getting it then i dont see any question why we shouldnt get also.
Peace V

Anonymous said...

hi bro's here is some interesting news from mod
With own 5-Gen fighter project with Russia, India not keen on US jet

Read more: With own 5-Gen fighter project with Russia, India not keen on US jet - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/With-own-5-Gen-fighter-project-with-Russia-India-not-keen-on-US-jet-/articleshow/7380551.cms#ixzz1CU4G071X

"We cannot have two types of FGFA. We have already launched preliminary work for our FGFA after inking the $295 million preliminary design contract (PDC) with Russia last month,'' said a top defence ministry official on Friday.

This comes in the wake of comments made by a top Pentagon official, undersecretary of defence for acquisition, technology and logistics Ashton Carter, in Washington that the US was open to Indian participation in its JSF project.

Read more: With own 5-Gen fighter project with Russia, India not keen on US jet - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/With-own-5-Gen-fighter-project-with-Russia-India-not-keen-on-US-jet-/articleshow/7380551.cms#ixzz1CU4rxnyK

Anonymous said...

The topic of Indian looking for F-35 or any foreign weapon system has a detrimental effect on the jobs and mass migration of Indian students.
I hope all are aware about, Indian students duped by US university, I have the queries, Why cannot we create an excellent ecosystem of educational institutions and industries, where any science, commerce or arts graduate is provided decent pay and living condition? Why should we not have excellent student in basic science/commerce/arts? why should we pursue BE/BTech/MBBS/MD/MS to achieve a Rs 18,000/23,000/etc pay.

In India most support import of technology, which provide jobs to foreigners in their land, however we are forced to go abroad in search of similar jobs.

The behavior of self-proclaimed intellectuals, Judiciary, babus, Armed forces, politicians has forced most Indian to migrate to US/EU/UK/AU by hook or crook as the migrant know we cannot work on the technology in India; all we hear is India provides cheep labor.

I think, if there is survey on why Indians do not like to live in India, 99% would tell, they have no confidence in any of governing bodies; Judiciary, government office, or Industries as all create hurdles and not opportunities.


The mass migration of student from India to US/UK/EU/AU displays the ineptness of governing bodies.

A nation is made beautiful or progressive by its people and not the other way round.

Anonymous said...

The topic of Indian looking for F-35 or any foreign weapon system has a detrimental effect on the jobs and mass migration of Indian students.
I hope all are aware about, Indian students duped by US university, I have the queries, Why cannot we create an excellent ecosystem of educational institutions and industries, where any science, commerce or arts graduate is provided decent pay and living condition? Why should we not have excellent student in basic science/commerce/arts? why should we pursue BE/BTech/MBBS/MD/MS to achieve a Rs 18,000/23,000/etc pay.

In India most support import of technology, which provide jobs to foreigners in their land, however we are forced to go abroad in search of similar jobs.

The behavior of self-proclaimed intellectuals, Judiciary, babus, Armed forces, politicians has forced most Indian to migrate to US/EU/UK/AU by hook or crook as the migrant know we cannot work on the technology in India; all we hear is India provides cheep labor.

I think, if there is survey on why Indians do not like to live in India, 99% would tell, they have no confidence in any of governing bodies; Judiciary, government office, or Industries as all create hurdles and not opportunities.


The mass migration of student from India to US/UK/EU/AU displays the ineptness of governing bodies.

A nation is made beautiful or progressive by its people and not the other way round.

satbir said...

No if AMCA comes on time.

Anonymous said...

@Anon 11:36 AM
You made the right point. This is crux of whole story. Why still we are struggling. I live in EU and every Friday when I sit with my friends, we all tell this to each other
"I want to go to back to INDIA, but what the hell I will do there, how I will support my family, There is huge corruption and least cooperation. All want to show each other their supremacy. Social system is going bad. People lost their moral values............"
And this discussion goes on every time we meet. Just to keep ourselves alive we visit sites like livefist and others.
I want to do something for my nation, but how ? all I can do is to give good moral value to my kids and thats all.
We are very shocked by what happened with Sonawane. The question is that do you think its just oil mafia who are corrupt ? No way even government officers are involved, ministers are involved. From where all these people come ? from Mars ? No
They come from our own society. So if we want to change something first we have to start changing our thinking from all points.

Everybody in this world knows caliber of INDIAN people and their mind, but why we in INDIA can not utilize it. Don't you think that its a shame that we still import many things from outside ? India is not a poor nation, Indians are making it a poor nation.

Anonymous said...

Russia is a failed superpower. They and their a/c industries are no longer what they used to be. After the collapse of USSR, Russia has not come up with any new a/c in the last almost 2 decades. Their defense industries are in shambles and rife with corruption which will put our Laloo Yadav to shame. They have difficulty in supplying us the spares for our defens eqps. So how much capable are they to design and build a truly 5th Gen fighter where the masters in this field are struggling? I would advise not to put all our eggs in one basket. We must keep the F35 option open. This will act as an insurance in case FGFA or AMCA come a cropper. India can secretly work with USA on F35, no need to advertise to the entire world our involvement in this programme. FGFA will be for IAF and F35 can be for Navy and Army.

Sam said...

I had posted earlier on the need for the JSF. It is useless to buy an Air Superiority fighter which is what the MRCA is intended to be.

What we need is a Strike aircraft. Any aircraft entering hostile territory has to contend with Air Defences. Hence it needs good SEAD capability and Stealth.

The only aircraft today that that we can realistically buy is the JSF. Even 2 squadrons of the JSF will be better than 6 squadrons of any 4 or 4.5 generation fighter like the Typhoon or the Rafale or the Gripen which by the way are all good aircraft.

With 40 JSF fighters, with Stealth, SEAD, armed with AMRAAMS and AESA, we will be the kings of the skies for time to come.

Any 4th or 4.5th generation aircraft however good they might be or in whatever numbers we buy them will not help us with Strike capabilities.

Let us buy the JSF, get the FGFA and focus on un-manned aircraft. That is the way to build the next generation air force.

Honestly i dont know why we should even be buying a MRCA. With AWACS, a Sukhoi-MKI, upgraded Mirages and Migs we do not need any more air defence numbers. Do they help - yes but are they a game changer - no.

We need a game changer and the JSF will be just that. The Pakis will then need to seriously seriously worry about their missile storage and security.

Anonymous said...

I am ready to buy JSF, but will you give me full TOT ?
Also can I pay in installments ?

Anonymous said...

Anon@4:22pm, I too work abroad and presently involved in developing algorithms for autonomous systems.
On your change of ones thought, I would like to open the commercial R &D lab to develop algos for autonomous, self learning systems, however the attitude of peon to babus to politicians and judicary to CBI puts me off. In short the idea of changing of current indian governing system is near to impossible as it's difficult to fight a system created to give difficulties and not opportunities.
In India the difficulties in governance governing citizens is created to inflict maximum pain and failure in citizens and not success. My thoughts may be pessimistic, however the truth of governance speak for it's deed.

It's easy to preech, but at times impossible to follow your saying, welcome to the real world.

Shortening all facts and assumptions, even thought a strong technology makes a nation great or powerful, i strongly feel, the key to successful nation is fair and speedy Justice system where the corrupt or criminal does not dare to shout, law will take it's own course, give us 10 more years, we will give you justice.

XENDER said...

what the fuck is this...f-35 along with FGFA will add to Indian defence strength....both r fifth gen stealth fighters......India will b invincible ...

Rahul said...

READ THIS & Know ORIGIN of USA JSF/Stealth Fighter programme!

''Following the announcement by the CIS that it could no longer fund development of the Yak-41M, Yakovlev immediately entered into discussions with several foreign partners who could help fund the program (a tactic they were also pursuing for development of the Yak-130 trainer, which was eventually developed in partnership with Aermacchi of Italy). Lockheed-Martin, which was in the process of developing the X-35 for the U.S. Joint Strike Fighter program, quickly stepped forward, and with their assistance 48-2 was displayed at the Farnborough Airshow in September 1992. Yakovlev announced that they had reached an agreement with Lockheed-Martin for funds of $385 to $400 million for three new prototypes and an additional static test aircraft to test improvements in design and avionics. Planned modifications for the proposed Yak-41M included an increase in STOL weight to 21,500 kg (47,400 lb). One of the prototypes would have been a dual-control trainer. Though no longer flyable, both 48-2 and 48-3 were exhibited at the 1993 Moscow airshow. The partnership began in late 1991, though it was not publicly revealed by Yakovlev until 6 September 1992, and was not revealed by Lockheed-Martin until June 1994.''
''A considerable amount of time was spent in the development of a flat, rectangular nozzle similar to that later employed on the American F-22 Raptor''.
Just know USA owe's its gratitude to Russians as most important tecnology fell in thier hands after soviet break up!F-22 developed from YAK-141!Yak wanted money USA had it gave it to develop got a lot of insight into the programme & got tech for itsown planes...bought it actually!they payed a lot...its secret...but they payed alright!just go for FGFA....russian are good at it..we will get more from this programme for our knowledge will improve...no binding agreements on use of tech like USA imposes!!!Jai Hind....

Anonymous said...

No We do not need F35. Our LCAs are the best!!

Anonymous said...

I would go with about 100 F-16/F-18 for the MMRCA and around 40-60 F-35. Add about 400 LCA Mk1/M2 and 250 MKI and we have a strong IAF that can dominate the skies.

I dont know why we are investing in PAKFA. It is still in development stage and I am sure that Russia will give away some portion of tech for the J20 to the Chinese. In a way, India will be indirectly funding the J20.