Wednesday, April 06, 2011

CNN-IBN REPORT: Eurofighter, Rafale Lead MMRCA Pack

34 comments:

Ravi Khanna said...

Old Report...

Anonymous said...

Same old rehashing of rumours which mean nothing until price negotiations begin. The jet that meet requirements at acceptable price would be on top.

DGA said...

And the best choice is Rafale because is "Combat proven" in Afghanistan and in Libya (carrier operations, long radius missions for Armée de l'Air's Rafale, bombing with ASSM and SCALP-EG/Apache, reconnaissance missions, air-to-air refuelling...)

In the same time the British and Italian Eurofighter Ttphoons are only used for air-to-air missions... but Libyan AF has not operational fighters !!

buddha said...

India should mind its territorial need
the air craft which is good in thar region may not be apt in ladhak or arunachal prodesh

super hornet is perfect
rafale has deep penetration quality
eurofighter gives india access to europe

As the number is going to be 280+
India should split the contract
Super hornet=120
Euro-fighter =90.
rafale=80

Pankaj said...

Iaf shud be go rafel b,cos france is a real power of world it's policy not follw USA bt otr eurofiter country r nt reiable policy aginst indian kashmir and tarrism

Anonymous said...

super pig is far from being perfect, buddha

Bhavin said...

shiv u r late to post ths news. Bharat rakshak hd alrdy posted.

And finaly as i told, and again telling 'waiting for RAFALEs'

Jake Lor said...

Why would in the hell India want to buy Eurofighter Typhoon or Dassault Rafale.

Eurofighter is too expensive and it's AESA radar is still underdevelopment.

India already buy french fighter the Mirage 2000H. The French Fighter is also expensive too. An also it's AESA radar is still underdevelopment.

Anonymous said...

If this report had said the teens were in the lead, Good lord almost everyone reading this blog would have jumped on it: CNN an American company, one of the two player one CNN-IBN, is out there pushing American product, or acting as a mouth-piece for the US businesses and the US Govt. I love this: If it's what you want to hear it's OK, anything else is a biased reporting.

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 6:21 pm

Stop wasting time on what would have been. Apparently the report does not put the teens on top and there rests the matter.

In any case CNN-IBN's interest in matters such as this deal or weapon induction / purchase is negligible unless there is a scandal.

I doubt if they have done any level of research. This is a rehashing of the top circulation rumors as a 'story'. Nothing great.

Shiv,
Your posts on the MMRCA have been disappointing. First you do a poll telling everyone that I know the pecking order but won't tell.

Then you go silent on this issue altogether. Reporting from Libya, Egypt etc.

Now after building suspense you put a lame 'off the record' briefing by some MoD babu that tells nothing.

What is it? Do you know anything at all about the deal (more than what is there in print)?

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 6:21 pm

Stop wasting time on what would have been. Apparently the report does not put the teens on top and there rests the matter.

In any case CNN-IBN's interest in matters such as this deal or weapon induction / purchase is negligible unless there is a scandal.

I doubt if they have done any level of research. This is a rehashing of the top circulation rumors as a 'story'. Nothing great.

Shiv,
Your posts on the MMRCA have been disappointing. First you do a poll telling everyone that I know the pecking order but won't tell.

Then you go silent on this issue altogether. Reporting from Libya, Egypt etc.

Now after building suspense you put a lame 'off the record' briefing by some MoD babu that tells nothing.

What is it? Do you know anything at all about the deal (more than what is there in print)?

Anonymous said...

I am tired of all this nonsense

Mr. Ra said...

I see that mostly all the videos of EFT are in dogfight or air superiority mode only. Whereas mostly all the videos of Rafale are in ground strike or deep penetration mode only. Perhaps this makes the difference.

Looking in to the immediate and long terms needs of India, I think the Rafale replaces the Mig-21, Mig-27, Jaguar and Mirage-2000. Whereas EFT replaces the Mig-21 and Mirage-2000 only that too at higher costs and times.

As the world has entered in to the Fifth Gen, so I think it would be a waste of money to purchase more than 126 Nos in MMRCA.

Tilda said...

We simply cannot match Cheen conventionally in any possible way, regarding pk,,if there is a conflict with pk,,,then Cheen will show up 100%,,,so the point is, there is not much use of conventional force such as this,obviously we wont risk going into thier territory with these birds,,,what we need is unconventional N to deter both of them from adventures,,it should be from deep sea, underwater, huge SAM's assets with lot of real time satellite intelligence and mapping, howtzrs sprinkled everwhere at borders , lots of intelligence gathering and planning,,and a good set of birds to counter any that make thru these layers,,,this 10b would be better served there i think IMHO..

Raman Kumar Singh said...

From last couple of day's, I am trying to analyze on these aircraft and was trying to find out the suitable one for us. I have a bad feeling on all contenders and then I thought lets choose one with minimum problems/disadvantage.

EF -> Currently active in multiple countries. However, its too costly and spare parts will be a disadvantage. AESA is still not ready. There TOT looks good though. My rating 4 out of 5.

F-18 & F-16 -> I am not in favor of any american aircraft, as we can't believe them in any given situation and TOT would be limited. They say that TOT will be enough to fulfill the criteria. My rating 2 out of 5.

Gripen -> Proven platform and currently active with multiple countries. However, its capability is similar to Tejas(or needs a bit more modification). Additionally, it has many US parts which again doesn't go well with me. My rating 2 out of 5.

Mig 35 -> Not in use currently and if this is chosen, delivery will only start after 2016 as there is no production line of the aircraft. AESA radar will be available once its active. My suggestion, buy entire blueprint and 100% TOT including engine, AESA radar and other critical components. Our friends would not have any issue with it. Produce it in India. This will give us lot of knowledge(even though its not one of the best as per technology). However, it will boost out defense industry and we can customize it as per out requirement. My ratings 4 out of 5.

Rafale -> This is one aircraft which is made by only one country and no parts are from US. French government has cleared 100% TOT for India. They are also ready to provide 40 aircraft for a stop gap measure. AESA radar is now active or at the end of testing phase, so it will be available for India. Its also a carrier based so Navy can also use similar aircraft as IAF. My rating 5 out of 5.

So, I would love to see either Rafale or Mig-35 in IAF color.

Friends, above mentioned details are my personal opinion and I am ok with a healthy debate if any one has any different ideas.

Cheers :)

Anonymous said...

GOOD NEWS !! bye bye americans !

Ravi Khanna said...

Hey Shiv Can u post on the latest.. thread!!

Chinese army knocks at Kashmirs doors?

Anonymous said...

the rafale radar was available
French have make in 2009 one command of 60 rafale, and the AESA was in.
You see today the rafale in libya, when all government was in talk in Paris, you have over libya, in the same time, some rafale, libya don't have see them.
The rafale today was very excellent, he make all, and he was every years better.
The eurofighter just make modification for launch one bomb, not before 2018, all partners reduces orders, the trench 1 was destined to the cimetary, trench 2 need be upgraded.
Seriously if india need make one choice about these 2 planes, tell me "why" the eurofighter?

Anonymous said...

This comment does not hysterically rant and rave about it´s poster´s personal preferences and opinions on pros/cons of MMRCA tenders.

Manne said...

I have consistently said for many years now. The smart thing for the French would be to co-produce Rafale with India as the base and sell it world over with IAF for reference. Win-Win!

- Manne

Anonymous said...

Those of you harping on the EFT, please do read this article.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/03/eurofighter_nao_analysis/

Anonymous said...

As it has happened in the past when the IAF wanted the A-330 MRTT the Finance and the Defence Ministries disapproved of it saying that it was too expensive compared to the Russian IL-78. here also in case of MMRCA even if the IAF wants the Typhoon or the Rafale will the Ministry of Finance agree to this or they will force the enduser (IAF) in selecting a cheaper aircraft like the Gripen or the F-16.

Animesh said...

WOW after reading all the comments, let me offer my perspective of the french campaign in libya. i believe mr sarkozy just delivered a beautiful masterstroke. first it was necessary to carry these airstrikes to show that france still matters in international diplomacy. then in one shot, rafale started cracking up operational experience.
i believe technicalities of the result will be shared with India to silence the critics who were questioning the real time war experience of rafael when compared to teen series fighters. now with opertional experience & just fresh after the validation of AESA on rafale, they just gained vital points.

Anonymous said...

I still think Gripen is the most fighter for the money, and it will probably give the most to the industry.

SAAB will share everything they know, and that is alot if you are willing to listen. They are world leaders when it commes to networking between fighters, and their fighters are reliable and cheap (for a modern fighter).

Sweden has a law forbidding arms sales to countries at war, but they dont break signed contracts. So once the deal is closed and signed, that law doesnt affect anything as far as I know.

Mr. Ra said...

As all of them are eagerly awaiting for F-35 to be brought about in the ground attack role, so they may be least interested to develop costly EFT for this role. Then after EFT will be turned in to a beautiful flying White Elephant.

I think we can entirely depend upon the strong chain of Tejas-I & II, Mig-29, Rafale, Sukhoi-30MKI, FGFA/T-50 and AMCA.

Anonymous said...

This procurement should be the last time a complete weapon system that is required in large numbers is imported. All such key equipment should be developed or co-developed by India. The services should have no other option in this regard.

The government should formally advise each of the three services to fall in line and support domestic development. The government should simultaneously try out new ideas for indigenous development of key equipment.

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 7.31, completely agree with you - still India should not entertain the idea of buying Gripen for two important reasons ;
- We have our own Tejas which is in the same class
- Too much imported component in the plane

Politically, buying Gripen is just not possible as people like me will crucify the Government for working against domestic products.

Gautam said...

By the time this idiotic tendering process is finished fifth-gen fighters like the F-15 Silent Eagle, F-35, the Japanese ATD-X and the Korean KFX will already been available. Then Antony and his inept MOD will cancel this as 'outdated' and start a new SMRCA(Stealthy Multi Role Combat Aircraft) circus.

Anonymous said...

I agree with anon 12:01pm,
and politically buying Gripen Ng is a bad idea for any country with a spine.

Eagle said...

Rafale is the best bet for India.EF is good for only air to air role."Teen" series aircraft India should not buy as America is unreliable.Gripen is advance version of Tejas aircraft and Mig-35 is just adavnce version of Mig-29.India compensate Russia by joining in FGFA/PMA project.
@Shiv:-After coming back from Libya we are not getting quality military hardware nws from this site.

Anonymous said...

Rafale is a good a/c and there is no doubt about it. But how many countries around the world have bought the Rafale. As of now, only France operates Rafale.

It would be better to take the 40 Rafale France is offering and use it as a Strategic Nuclear delivery platform (as mentioned in one of the earlier posts on this blog).

The F-16 is a much better bet. Operated by many countries, it is a nimble fighter. It might have its origins in the 70s or 80s, but it is fighter whose capabilities have been proven in combat. Cost wise, I believe it will be much cheaper than Rafale or EFT. Lockheed Martin can also deliver it faster to us.

Most people here have said that they dont believe the Americans and hence would go for Rafale and even Pakistan Air Force flies it. But we have bought C-130J, P8I aircraft and are looking for C-17. So doesnt the question of reliability come there too.

Also C-130J was first introduced in 1957. So doesnt that make it old technology? I guess not cos an aircraft keeps going through upgrades and so is the case with F-16.

Gripen is good and there is no doubt on the capabilities it offers. It is another option we can look at. Many people argue that it is in the same class as LCA Tejas...probably true but LCA Tejas Mark II is still not ready!

So if I were to rank the aircrafts (purely on what I have read on this blog and BR), I would go with the following

1. F-16
2. Gripen
3. F-18
4. Rafale
5. EFT
6. MiG-35

I say it again, all aircrafts are capable and will suit India's needs...its just that we have to see what is in our best interest. Rafale is a good a/c and we should just take the 40 being offered in fast track mode.

SmestarZ said...

Friends, my view as follows

A) the competition is for Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft, also the Indian Airforce expects twin engined fighter for better reliability
That should be end of story for F-16 and Gripen. Both F-16 and Gripen are clean fighters, but Gripen is light weight aircraft and has some US parts which require US ratification. Also Pakistan uses F-16 so no fun having similar aircraft.

B) F-16 and F-18 had earlier competed for USAF contract which F-16 won and later F-18 won the US Marines contract. So the designs are older.

C) Eurofighter and Rafale began their designs together initially and then France decided to follow its own requirements.

About someone saying that even the British are cancelling orders, Actually Britain wanted to have more aircraft, but presently UK is in cost cutting mode. They even scrapped Nimrods which give them AEW capability. They have heaviliy invested in future of F-35 Lightning II.
Also UK as such is a small country and there is peace in all of Europe so they do not face any immediate danger. So UK is trying to reduce its orders and trying to sell thoose planes to Saudi and other countries

Mig-35 OVT is a modified Mig-29, and If we send our Mig-29 to Russia we can get them modified to Mig-35 OVT standards.

Now the ground reality.

We have Sukhoi-30 MKI and so do the Chinese, they have different version Su-30 MKK, but then it will all come to skills of pilots and the advantages what we have with Sukhoi might be negated,

Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale are planes which other countries (our neighbours ) do not have. So there is good chances that in case of any conflict we shall have an upper hand with these better planes. As you are aware that once a weapon is used in conflict and if one is shot down, others study it and get a way to counter it.
So there are chances that our Su-30 MKI have been studied and counters ready. But there are no counters for Rafale or Eurofighter as yet (as no other country has purchased it)

Eurofighter is designed as Air-superiority fighter with limited strike role (they are developing now)

Rafle is designed at Multi role with main focus on Strike and secondary Air-superiority roles

So they can be complimentary,

As per what India has

A) Mig-29 Light weight air-superiority fighter (can be used for defence of important cities and installations with longer range interception and interdiction.

B) Tejas Light weight air-superiority fighter to fly CAPS over important cities and installations. Short range but long endurance

C) Su-30 MKI. Long range interdiction, strike and air-superiority

D) Hawk 200: Training, Strike and Attack

E) Mig-21 2000: Short range Quick reaction interception. With all the new avioniocs and the Mig-21's shape and engine. It is one of the fastest plane in IAF and it has now 4 pylons for putting on 4 AA missiles so if anything somehow goes thru the first 3 (which I doubt), then surely Mig-21 has role to just take off, strike and land)
It has a short range but wonderful speed. As many of its former pilots say it is like a rocket in straight flight and it cannot manouever well so why not take advantage of its strengths?

So why do we need Eurofghter/Rafale/Mig-35/Gripen/F-16/F-18 when we have Sukhoi-30 MKI, Mig-29 and Tejas ?

1. Tejas is not mature and it will take time to gain combat experience.
2. China has sukhoi-30 and sure it will discuss in detail about it with pakistan to create counter measures or weapons.
3. Pakistan has F-16s and surely it has supplied China with information that it needs on avionics etc.
So we have to have an aircraft which is neither Russian or American to create a better offensive/defensive mix.

Hope my explaination makes sense, it does to me

SmestarZ

Anonymous said...

If The IAF settles for a twin engined jet the Rafale is going to win but there is lot of diplomatic pressure from Washington for MMRCA It might be a split contract also with the Americans getting a share .F-16 IN Super Viper ???

SmestarZ said...

The Airforce has clearly informed that they do not want F-16 since Pakistan is using it.
F-18 is OK fighter but the matter of point is that F-22 and F-35 are being made to replace F-18 E/F which will be replaced .
I think if US planes are selected by some chance, I think the Govt has good chance not to be eelcted for a few decades at least.

C-130 J is old design yes but the production is still going on and it is being developed, and it is one of the best medium range transport. But in fact we purchased these planes through FMS Foreign Military sales and we ended up paying about 20% more on each plane !!

The crux is that America wants to be a friend, but its parasitic relationship, they get what they want and we have to beg for even the smallest requirements.

I fee that Russia and USA have become equally unreliable. So the option is to
A) Try some other sources.
b) Develop available technology and become source ourselves.

Think about it.