Sunday, July 03, 2011

India's DRDO Reveals New Tactical Missile 'Prahaar'

India's DRDO has revealed that a new 150-km quick reaction missile "Prahaar" is to be tested for the first time later this month. While there have been indications in the past that the DRDO was working on a weapon system to fill operational gaps between the rocket systems used by the armed forces and the Prithvi family of short-range ballistic missiles, its name and rough range have only been revealed now.

I'm back in India later this week, and will post more on Prahaar soon.



85 comments:

Anonymous said...

Thanks. Pls post a pic.

Anonymous said...

Timing of this missile is just Amazing! Here we had Pakistanis gloating over their puny 60km tactical missile but now here it is. India's 150 km tactical missile. We didn't blow trumpet or make fuss about things. Just keep at it DRDO. We are proud of you.

Anonymous said...

Dear Jingos,

If this is true then what is the need to advertise ? Mr. Saraswat should be engaged in commencing/co 0rddinating quality and quantity manufacture - not try to justify his existance at every damn opertunity.

Prakant said...

@Shiv or fellow livefist readers. Can anyone point out what an Omni-directional Warhead means? The Prahar will use it and I cant find any info about that. The best I could find was about some torpedo navigation. Please shed some light on this. Thanks.

Digvijay Singh said...

As someone else said, stop sight-seeing and get back to work. NOW!

Anonymous said...

no need to get over excited, This is just pinaka extended range rockets.Which is already 7 year behind schedule.

Take it from me or wait for the horses mouth.

ps Shiv g stay away from those clubs

Anonymous said...

Anon pakis tested a chinese copy cat and called it nasr as usual bluff against much superior Indian string capability.

But how do you think a 40 km Pinaka can be extended to 150 km? rofl


Its a all new missile.


Shiv please post some details and photo.

Anonymous said...

Its just a guess, the omni-directional warhead derives from the AAD's directional warhead which is a shaped charge aimed at the target allowing a smaller warhead to do the required damage. omni directional capability is to be able to dynamically position the shaped charge based on the missile-target vector making it CEP insensitive relatively.

Read that it is expensive but worth for AAD, not sure for Prahaar which is supposed to be better value than an unguided rocket

Jith said...

welcome back Shiv,
Eagerly waiting for more posts

Anonymous said...

thank you for the news pls post the pics and specs ...best wishes to drdo for a succesful prahar test..

Suchit said...

thank you for the news pls post the pics and specs ...best wishes to drdo for a succesful prahar test..

Anonymous said...

it is supposed to be tested in next 3-4 days i hope.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Prakant: When Dr Saraswat was speaking at the DRDO function he never said that the Prahaar will have an omni-directional warhead. He had said that the missile will have the capability of delivering warheads by omni-directional means (just as the BrahMos does). What he meant by that was that since the Prahaar will be vertically launched, it can be aimed at any target in an omni-directional manner, as opposed to cruise missile/MBRL launchers on board land-based TEL vehicles that have to be aligned to the target area prior to firing. The reporter from THE HINDU present at the DRDO function was obviously unable to make sense of all this, and therefore chose to make an oversimplistic interpretation of the data.

Mr. Ra said...

Excellent. It may be a smaller distance version of Shourya or Brahmos. Let us see what it turns out to be.

Anonymous said...

@1125

eh..if they announce something....its cheap publicity...
if they dont announce..its coz they are wasting time & not working

quality of manufacture is not DRDO's problem...

Anonymous said...

@444pm
extending range from 40km to 150km...thats a boost of over 2.5 times
i doubt the work was simple enough to call it just an ER version..i would assume that a lot had to be changed

joydeep ghosh said...

Dear

Shiv Aroor

The new missle 'Prahaar' as referred by you is nothing but a re-engineered 'Prithvi 1' which also had a range of 150 km.

The only bonus is that unlike 'Prithvi 1' which was a single missile launch, this new system fires 6 missiles one after the other, and is more accurate than 'Prithvi 1' which has been plagued as inaccurate with over 150 m CEP.

Dr. V.K. Sarawat the father of Prithvi series of missiles has been facing flak for developing a liquid fueled inaccurate missile. I guess with 'Prahhar' he is trying to redeem himself.

With a range of 150 km as per the newspaper reports it does not fill the gap between BM-21, Pinaka, Smerch with Prithvi.

What is really needed is a reverse-engineered Smerch with following details

1. 8 barrel launcher instead of 12 barreals with auto loader and range of 110 km

2. Heavier warhead capacity
3. A single chassis long wheel base 20+ ton Tata truck as carrier.

This will indeed help to reduce the gap between BM-21, Pinaka, Smerch with Prithvi.

It will be suited to counter any advancing enemy formation and will be especially suited for use in inaccessible areas like mountains

Thanks

Joydeep Ghosh

Anonymous said...

Shiv, Please post something about TEJAS currant status. Thanks

joydeep ghosh said...

@Prasun da

By the looks of it it seems you where there at the press conference. :-)

I dont think its a new missile, as i have stated earlier its just the solid fueled version of the cumbersome liquid fueled Prithvi 1 and does not in any way reduce gap between 90 km Smerch and 150 Prithvi 1.

What we really need is a modified Smerch missle system, with features that I have mentioned in my earlier post.

Will be glad to hear something from you with regard to my earlier and current posts

Thanks

Joydeep Ghosh

SUMIT said...

For years I have been reading these petriotic news and was hoping things will improve ...
well time again and again DRDO keeps on disappointing us.
Last few years it has learnt new tick from PMO's office or Gandhi house ..LYING ...
I don't believe DRDO is any good ...just listen/read and leave it ..lets accept we all are useless people ...

Anonymous said...

Why 150? why not 400? has MTCR been kept in mind due to some technology that has been used in this missile

Anonymous said...

@joydeep
so..as per you...they have modified a prithvi n changed it to a solid fueled system...and thats a small step???

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Joydeep Ghosh: You're right about the press conference part, but wrong about the missile's origin. Just try to read up all you can about the LORA long-range artillery rocket from Israel Aerospace Industries, or go to: http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2011/07/here-comes-prahaarat-last.html

Artanis said...

@Joydeep So you think it is an modified Prithvi-I simply because they have similar range? I disagree.
Prithvi-I is an liquid fueled missile with an 1 stage propulsion meant to be launched alone while Prahar is an Solid fueled three stage missile meant to launch in salvo. Also your comment that it could have a bigger 'payload' amuses me. Do you know what its current warhead load is?
PS: It already features 'auto loader'. Read the news again.
PPS: Even if we assume that it was based on our Prithvi missile, so what? It matters not what system is based on. If it works. It works.

Anonymous said...

@SUMIT How is it going in Pak? Still drones dropping bomb on ya? ROFL. Anyway, DRDO is going to test this within days. Yep, test is scheduled on 17/july. After some months, on December we will be testing our Agni-V with 5000-6000 km range and MIRV warheads. We have already completed first phase of Ballistic Missile Defense. Only US,Rus and India have made BMD on their own.
DRDO, HAL and ISRO are working hard to keep India safe.

Anonymous said...

This is ENTIRELY different from Pinaka. Pinaka is an rocket. This is an guided missile. Also, India is already working on an Extended range Pinaka of 120 km range.

joydeep ghosh said...

@artanis

I am sorry to say but please read my posts carefully. What amuses you about me, I have actually said that about a reverse engineered Smerch battery meant for quick reaction. please go through my previous posts. Awaiting your response.

@prasun da

I am not against 'Prahaar', what I am proposing is a modified Smerch battery as a area dominance system, with features mentioned in earlier post to club the gap between Smerch and Prahaar/Prithvi.

Also I never questioned the origin of the 'Prahaar' system, if you read my previous posts I have clearly said the 'Prahaar' has been developed to overcome the shortcomings of 'Prithvi' missiles, of which V.K.Sarawat was the project lead like liquid propulsion, CEP in access of 200 m.

You may be right about the LORA system but then that will make firing 'Prahaar' costly and that is why i am saying we need to reverse engineer the Smerch. Awaiting your response

Thanks

Joydeep Ghosh

Anonymous said...

can you pls confirm about wikipedia reports suggesting srilankan army has ordered 20 lch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Light_Combat_Helicopter

Anonymous said...

It is basically a long range Rocket with GPS guidance....accuracy is low...the warhead is around 100kg, that's why the salvo mode.

Artanis said...

@Joy I disagree with your comment that "Dear Shiv
The new missle 'Prahaar' as referred by you is nothing but a re-engineered 'Prithvi 1' which also had a range of 150 km."
You pointed out later that it might be an evolved version of SMERCH or as Prasun claims an version of LORA. Both are possible ofcourse.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Joydeep Ghosh: There isn't any gap between the Smerch-M MBRL and Prahaar. The only gap that needs to be plugged is between 37.5km (the Pinaka MBRL's range) and the Smwerch-M's quoted range of 90km. And the only way to plug this gap is by procuring 155mm/52-cal self-propelled field artillery howitzers (motorised and tracked) firing rocket-assisted projectiles out to 61.4km, as demonsrated a decade ago by both the Bhim tracked SPH and the Caesar motorised SPH.
The Smerch-M is an area saturation weapon and although it can deliver guided sensor-fuzed munitions, it still does not count as a precision strike weapon. The Indian Army has since 2002 been asking for hypersonic missiles with depressed flight trajectories for high-accuracy (not pinpoint accuracy, mind you) strikes against hostile fixed static targets like POL storage areas (for Brigade- and Divisional-level formations), and transportation infrastructure nodes located along interior lines of communication (consequently making the Prahaar Pakistan-specific). As such targets are plenty in number, only a limited inventory of 'Prahaars' will be reqd, like 80 missiles per missile group, which works out to 240 missiles for the three existing missile groups, plus three reload rounds, working out to 720 missiles. In terms of both the cost-benefit ratio and techno-economic matrix, the Prahaar will be extremely cost-effective as it will the free up the IAF's strike aircraft assets to launch strategic and tactical air interdiction sorties, instead of undertaking the extremely hazardous task of battlefield air interdiction. This in turn will dramatically reduce blue-on-blue engagements (which were plenty in the 1965 and 1971 wars) and also dramatically reduce the sensor-to-shooter time-gap that presently prevails as far as the Army's field artillery formations are concerned. In other words, the emphasis is on effects-based operations, and not on the tonnage of TNT dropped in and around the targetted areas.

Anonymous said...

@Anon 6:09pm Ofcourse we can build 400 km missile but what exactly do we do then with our 350 km range Prithvi?
Also, when you increase range you increase-
1- Weight
2- Cost
3- Maintenance
and obviously 4-Size
You cannot have a salvo of long range missiles as size/weight restriction on launch make that impossible. And that makes these truck mounted multi launch system ideal for our needs. To put it in even simpler words, try to understand that it is an Battlefield weapon which can be quickly used without involving top brass while long range missiles usually have higher threat perception and require clearance. Coupled with thermobaric warheads this can annihilate almost any target.

@Anon 7:57pm Your stupidity is without bounds. Where did you read that crap? In Paki forums?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@7.13PM: Are yaar, why on Earth would the Sri Lanka Army need LCHs now? To kill more Indian fisherman? The Sri Lanka Navy is already doing it using much cheaper means!!! Even no one inside India has placed any firm orders for the LCH. The MoD has contracted for only three LCH technology demonstrators, while the IAF has only expressed a commitment (or intent) to order 65 LCHs. But no firm orders have been placed by anyone in India for the LCH to date.

Anonymous said...

@Prasun K. Sengupta

Sir,

This thing is developed by DRDO but is L&T going to manufacture this for them? It will be interesting if privet companies will manufacture entire units for DRDO and armed forces.

Tako Nada said...

Great...Prahar is a befitting reply to Paki new tattical small range missile.

Anonymous said...

Prasun sengupt ruining this blog with his dreammy ideas.

Y. Mallikarjun from the Hindu is one of the best defence jouno in India. So stop talking BS sengupt.

Shiv welcome back.

Anonymous said...

"Prahaar is a modified version of Prithvi"- Jaydev.


Most funny thing ever heard. Agni-3 can be modified version of German V-2. rofl

Anonymous said...

jaydeep, pritvi has less than 10 m CEP not more than 200 m. Where did you get such funny info?

hotgene said...

Hay Shiv,

We live on 4 things,
1. Air
2. Food
3. Water and finally
4. LiveFist feeds.....

Don't let us starved :)

Welcome back to home.......

Raman Kumar Singh said...

Hi Shiv,

If you are still in US then you can visit California. We have Airforce One and Marine One at Thousand Oaks(Los Angles), its hardly 40 miles from LA airport. You can go inside Airforce One and see the details.

Let me know if you come there, I would love to meet you in person.

Welcome to US!!!

joydeep ghosh said...

@anonymous 3.05

It seems you have not read my posts clearly. I have said 'Prahaar' is a modification of 'Prithvi 1' in the sense that it has dealt with all the issues that plagued the 'Prithvi 1' missile e.g. liquid fuel, cumbersome, unsafe transport, high inaccuracy and other problems. Mind you boy this is not funny, its a serious topic. If you have anything to counter me you are welcome to post it.

@anonymous 3.03

It seems you are not aware of the facts, so please get those facts cleared. I would suggest you get them cleared through Shiv Aroor or Prasun K Sengupta.

joydeep ghosh said...

@Prasun da

Thanks for giving such a good analysis. But since Bhim tracked SPH and the Caesar motorised SPH are both still in the end of horizon, what is the solution. I still say we need to plug that gap by modifying the Smerch with features like

1. 8 barrel launcher instead of 12 barreals with auto loader and in between range of 60-100 km
2. Heavier warhead capacity
3. A single chassis long wheel base 20+ ton Tata truck as TEL.

This slimmer, smaller and faster system will be ideally suited for deployment in areas where heavy artilery or tanks cant reach, such as mountains. Since India is about to setup a Mountain Strike Corps its will play good role in that sector.

Also the more options we have the better. Whats your take on that

Thanks

Joydeep Ghosh

joydeep ghosh said...

@Artanis

My dear friend I never said 'Prahaar' is a modified version of Smerch. What Prasun said was that the features of 'Prahaar' look quite similar to IAI's LORA system.

You are free to disagree with my assertions but the fact is 'Prahaar' has been developed to overcome the shortfalls of 'Prithvi 1'.

thanks

Joydeep Ghosh

Anonymous said...

Check the news on this link. Pretty good info
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/miss_muni/20110704_%5Brahaar.html

Abstact "The 'Prahaar' will be a road-mobile NLOS weapon-similar to the BrahMos supersonic multi-role cruise missile-with each motorised transporter-erector-launcher (TEL) carrying three canister-based, vertically-launched missiles armed with conventional warheads.

A separate wheeled vehicle is being developed to act as a missile resupply station, carrying six canister-based missile rounds. Experts say the 'Prahaar' resembles an Israel Aerospace Industries-built LORA long-range artillery rocket.

The solid-fuelled 'Prahaar' is a product designed to overcome all deficiencies displayed by the Prithvi family of battlefield support missiles (the SS-150, SS-250 and SS-350), which is liquid fuelled and cumbersome to handle, both in terms of transportation and launch-readiness procedures. "

Anonymous said...

Good!And nice choice of name!Till now our missiles have benign names.The natural elements,Prithvi(earth,which the pakis thght was Prithvi Raj chauhan and chose to name their missile Ghori after an Afghan LOL),Agni(fire) or mythological names,Pinaka(Shiva's bow)or human qualities Shaurya(bravery).This one clearly shows its intent in its name name,Prahaar!To strike !!!

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To Anon@11.26PM: L & T will manufacture only the vertical launch cannisters and their related hydraulics and TEL power supply systems. BEML-TATRA will supply the wheeled vehicle housing the missile launchers, while Bharat Dynamics Ltd will build the missiles. Regretfully, the MoD continues to deny the Indian private sector the licence to produce composite rocket propellants and explosive warheads. According to the MoD's all-knowing wisdom and discredited regulations, only DPSUs and ordnance factories can be 'trusted' to do so. Even simple elementary electronic fuzes for mortar/artillery rounds built by the private sector till this day do not contain any explosive element, which is 'inserted' within the fuze by the MoF-owned OFB. It therefore seems that according to the MoD's Dept of Defence Production & Supplies, the private sector is incapable of securing and handling any kind of military explosive materials. Strange logic indeed!!!

Anonymous said...

Anon 2:59

Y. Mallikarjun from the Hindu is one of the best defence jouno in India.
-----------------------------------
What makes you say that? What is his qualification? Today any Tom, Dick or Harry can become dfens journo.Btw, r u that Mallika.. dude???

Mr. Ra said...

Prahaar is a very useful weapon which combines all the good attributes of a short-range tactical missile and MBRL. It is suitable for all possible kinds of war theaters incorporating the elements of ghat as well as pratighat.

Yajur said...

More confusion from domain-B -:

Dr. Saraswat said the missile would be equipped with omni-directional warheads and could be used for hitting both tactical and strategic targets. The road-mobile system could be pulled out for quick deployment with each launcher carrying six missiles.

The 'Prahaar' will be a road-mobile NLOS weapon-similar to the BrahMos supersonic multi-role cruise missile-with each motorised transporter-erector-launcher (TEL) carrying three canister-based, vertically-launched missiles armed with conventional warheads.

Both Paras are from same news!
OK So how many missiles each carrier carries? Six or three?

tAKO nADA said...

Prahar is Indian version of LORA.

Mr. Ra said...

This is this -->

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread193011/pg1

Anonymous said...

@Prasun,

With the level of corruption and incompetence in Indian Pvt sector, it's best they are not allowed too much access to our critical defense sector which is anyway plagued with corruption.

But, MoD must allow Pvt sector to compete in both national and international defense mkts. The Tatas, Mahendras and now even Reliance look at these multi billion$ defense contracts as a hedge against a competitive business env where their monopoly is eroding very fast. Thru news media and some journos they are trying to create an impression that they are being unjustly denied participation in India's defense. Whereas the fact is, their version of "participation" is continuation of "licence permit raj and crony capitalism" through the backdoor by getting lucrative contracts without any competition. Did L&T compete with any company to get this monopolistic contract? Make no mistake, this is the next biggest scam.
@Shiv you need to do some investigative journalism in this area.

Shiv Aroor said...

@hotgene: Back in Delhi tomorrow, so things will be better here. :-)

@Raman: Kind of you! I'm leaving for India tomorrow, but maybe next time? Thanks.

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

The same argument you're now making was personally parrotted to me in 1991 by none other than the then Indian Union Finance Minister Dr Manmohan Singh and Commerce Minister P Chidambaram in Singapore. At that time it was defence and nuclear energy which were the no-go areas. Well...today nuclear has been dropped and the private sector is being openly encouraged to become financial stakeholders in new-generation nuclear power plant projects. When exactly will you then read the writing on the wall? Will you continue to allow DPSUs to charge Rs1,500 crores for building an advanced offshore patrol vessel when the private sector is quoting only Rs500 crores? To me, that is real corruption. And FYI Larsen & Toubro did win through the competitive bidding process that had involved six companies. All MoD contracts awarded to the private sector since 1998 have been through the competitive tendering process, especially with regard to the IGMDP.

Vishal said...

Shiv please only post accurate news. People like this prasun and joydeep characters are ruining the blog with their manufactured stories and commentary. Its not enough that Prasun has been caught out makeing up stuff again and again now he is spamming this blog as well.

Anonymous said...

@hotgene, you forgot to include "sex"!!

Anonymous said...

@2:27 PM
this is the case with DODO.. and the ratshakers that are in awe with it. I used to work at that shit hole but quit after my work ethic wouldnt let me continue. The whole place is just a waste of time, everyone comes in.. has food.. talks.. has more food.. snoozes and then has more food.

@10:49 PM
I dont think you are in any position to tell Shiv what to do. Go back to your RAThole you ratshaker. Have your mental masturbation there.

Anonymous said...

@anon 6:05 PM
hey RATshaker. everyone who isnt a fan of DODO isnt a paki. Grow up. You have a whole forum to piss around but you choose to come here and talk bullshit. Go back you RATSHAKER. DODO is a shit organisation, I know, I worked there.

Anonymous said...

Shiv why are you letting this parsun to ruin your blog with false claims? his blog is full of propaganda posts against you posted as 'Anonymous' by prasun himself.

Anonymous said...

Anon, 3:20 PM you and prasun are the same guys I know. But do not think you can copy paste and steal other's posts and photos go unrevealed.

you are not even a journo but a copyright violator and propaganda BS poster.

Anonymous said...

anon 2:04 and 2:09 paki save your as from drone attacks than think about India. rofl So much barking with donated chinese and americans weapons is not good.

Raman said...

Hi Shiv, any info and picture of Prahaar missile?

Anonymous said...

@Anon 5:00am I Agree. They go like 'Uncle Uncle, atankvadiyon ne mera Jahaj tod diya. Naya dila do na, Plz.'
We Indians are proud of DRDO, HAL and ISRO. Sure they are not perfect, we never say that they are but the fact remains our defense sector has progressed well in last 5 years. Also, pvt co-operation is set to increase. An $10 bn tender for def. veh. is floated and Tata, Mahindra, Ashok layland are among the candidates.

Anonymous said...

@Anon 5:00am I Agree. They go like 'Uncle Uncle, atankvadiyon ne mera Jahaj tod diya. Naya dila do na, Plz.'
We Indians are proud of DRDO, HAL and ISRO. Sure they are not perfect, we never say that they are but the fact remains our defense sector has progressed well in last 5 years. Also, pvt co-operation is set to increase. An $10 bn tender for def. veh. is floated and Tata, Mahindra, Ashok layland are among the candidates.

Anonymous said...

anon 2:04 and 2:09 at porki,paki is getting scared.He knows that our key projects really started getting their big finances from the late 90s when our economy was kick started.Prior to that we gave peanuts and expected a super dooper weapon back!It is only through the last decade that we have the billions to develop the weapons we need.Also there is now an openness to invite tech from abroad or the Indian private sector.And thanks to the booming Indian market many many willing tech partners both in India and abroad are trooping in.Indian defence industry is just beginning to cement its foundations and these systems are just the initial fruits.One we consolidate our govt,tech partners and private sector effort,things are really gonna go ahead.India actually has the wherewithal for setting up of a Military-Industrial complex.The pakis know that and they know how and where from their so called home built and developed weapons are coming from.Were it not for deep credit from China,gifts as a munna ally and diverted aid money,pak would not even have kites to fly!

Anonymous said...

@Prasun,

Pls tell me how much did L&T pay for the transfer of technology for that product that DRDO developed using the taxpayer's money?? Apart from developing the tech, the taxpayer also foots the bill for maintaining the ests like DRDO, paying salaries and other expenses which run into several 10000s of crores and are not factored in the development of technology.
Pvt firms are personal property or owned by select group of people/institutions. Why gift away nations' assets to pvt cos literally for free? What are they paying to acquire these multi million $ techs from DRDO?
How many Indian companies have the expertise to build and operate nuclear power plants or nuclear reactors? I am sure the gullible Indian taxpayers are footing the bill for Indian Cos acquiring phoren nuke tech. If this is not theft then what will you call it? It is surprising that you being a journo, instead of highlighting such daylight robbery, you are defending such actions on part of some groups with vested interests?
Why r DPSUs with years of exp and capabilities quoting 1500 cr for a vessel while Pvt firms with next to nil exp or capabilities quoting 500 crs. for that same vessel? Something is fishy..isn't it? People like you should be bringing to light such matters...or else it means you are in league with the very same groups with vested interests (something that has been brought out in the Nira Radia fiasco - journos printing news as per diktats of corrupt business houses and politicians).

Anonymous said...

@anon 5:52pm, although you have put your question to Prasun, let me say that no one expects DPSU folk to pack their bags and go stand in a museum.

But you will agree that only competition will bring everyone closer to perfection. If as you say DPSUs are better than private co. then why fear competition. If at all there is graft, with a vigilant media it can't stay under wraps anyway.

All governments today try to create conditions for society to generate employment and wealth. Any other way from past experience will only lead to License Raj-PSU Heaven, China's great leap forward etc.

Anonymous said...

@Anon 6.45PM,
Is our media vigilant?Are you completely ignorant about the Nira Radia fiasco? Those people who pose as paragons of virtue in our business and news media world were exposed as two faced crooks.

I have never said DPSUs are better than Pvt sector, but our nation, or taxpayers to be precise, have paid tons of money to create and maintain these huge PSUs which are either being sold for a song or they are being sidelined by groups with vested interests who are looking at ways and means to maintain their earlier monopolistic position in an increasingly globalised economy. If we follow the example of Embraer, a Brazilian ex PSU which was privatized by offloading it's share in the mkt, then our DPSU's will become much more efficient and accountable. We only have to look at the example of ICICI and IDBI.
These DPSU's are also like NASA. They are not mean't to generate profits, but for our country to gain capabilities in areas which our Pvt sector cannot. Now if they have gained expertise in some areas, then they should be allowed to manufacture those products as they hardly charge any profits, thereby resulting in savings of our limited revenues. If we force institutions like DRDO to part with critical technologies that the taxpayers have funded in their development, then it's a loss to the nation as that product or tech generally is given almost for free or for a pittance to Pvt companies who will manufacture these very same products for a profit and that profit wont go to the central exchequer but to owners and shareholders of that corporation.

My point is, when a curtain rod manufacturer can make state of the art weapons without Govt help, or a woodpulp manufacturer can make world's best communication devices without any Govt help.....why do our companies always need a monopolistic and restrictive env to survive? We have one of the world's largest number of billionaires and also the world's largest number of poor people. If someone is getting rich very fast, then lots of people are also getting poor very fast as you do not have unlimited amounts of money. It is this theft of our nation's resources by corrupt few that I am vehemently against. These same forces are also responsible for placing either extremely corrupt or extremely spineless politicians at important portfolios so that they will be more amenable to the whims and fancies of the powers that be.This is the very reason for India's poverty and backwardness. China's phenomenal "leap forward" post 1980s is due to throwing similar practices to the wind and allowing massive foreign investments. Our babu-neta-baniya troika won't allow such investments as that will mean loosing their place in the Sun. Result of lack of foreign investments is India's continued status as a very poor and backward country.
During 1990s when we didn't have any money, our netas were forced to partially open up the economy against the whines of our corrupt and inefficient Pvt sector. Result of that was India's economy shooting up like a champagne cork. Manmohan, Montek, Chidambaram and Narasimha Rao took the credit for India's strengthening economy. Whereas what they did was merely move Govt restrictive policies. They didn't do anything else for the improvement of the economy.And when the very same team have been given much higher positions than 1990s, they have proved to be utter failures. Our masses need to wake up and we need a far more competent and professional news media.

Anonymous said...

@anon 3:16 pm Firstly as you have already pointed out the base of knowledge is there, more players will therefore create more jobs. Because being startups they will offer a chance to experienced individuals to shift companies. Old positions in existing cos will also be filled thereby increasing the talent pool.
Secondly it also means that pay will increase as people with experience do not move for the same pay, this will in turn bring fresh young talent. Do you see this cycle now taking on a life of its own.

While if we leave things as they are, some day these people will retire taking their knowlege with them or will stagnate as there is no incentive to innovate or for lack of competition and rivalry the company may just decide to import some things and pass them off as 100% local.

About the decisions being made at the political level I think this is part of their DNA irrespective of the political party. They are all trash and it is best to squeeze out the best of what is there rather than wait 5 years for the next pack of mules to arrive.

There is no such thing as a professional media[no country has it], that is a term created by journos [at some point of time in Kalyug] to make us beleive they have a standard.

Cheers :)

Anonymous said...

@Anon 5.01PM
Recently a group of IITians created a micro UAV. I am all for supporting such projects by our Govt. The Govt can play the role of a venture capitalist here. But what rankles me is the daylight robbery that is going on in the name of defense.
If you look at any Indian company, be it Pvt or PSU, innovation simply does not exist as we do not believe in customer delight, but restrict all competition and force the consumers to buy crap at inflated prices. This situation is prevailing due to our culture and ethos. HM is classic example which is peddling vintage 1950s car in this day and age. Similarly if we give technologies developed by taxpayers' money to pvt companies for free then this will simply be a means to make money and not create capabilities. I am all for open competition. I want Govt to allow Pvt companies to participate in defense projects. But they need to build something on their own, and not get foreign products under the "Buy Only Indian policy" and rebrand them as Indian. This seems to be the modus operandi of all the Pvt companies which want to enter the highly lucrative and monopolistic defense sector.
Just allow more than 70% FDI in defense sector and you will have a thriving military industrial complex in India. Companies like Boeing will not make everything. They will get components from Indian companies which will raise their capabilities as they will be working for the best defense companies in the world. By capping FDI less than 50% we are stopping foreign investments and forcing foreign companies to invest via these corrupt good for nothing Indian Pvt companies who will give a share of the loot to our babus and netas. In such a situation India and Indians are the biggest losers. India is unable to take off like China due to our babu-neta-baniya mafia.

Anonymous said...

I am anon@2:09,

to ALL the ratshakers that are accusing me of being a paki.. shiv is free to confirm that I am in india through a check of my IP address. I cannot believe the delusion you ratshakers are in. Anyone who has or knows people in this organisation can confirm what I have said.

Why else would it take indians 30 years to get a plane thats working (please indians arent that stupid.. just corrupt)

so you RATshakers can go lick yourselves and piss in your shitty forum all you like, but this is the reality at HAL.

Anonymous said...

Pakis r nice people if you get to know them. Pls let's not abuse any country or community. Btw, Pakis are Punjabis, Sindhis, Bihari/UP, Pathans, Kashmiris and Baloochis. So, how different are they from us??

And yes things are far from perfect in DRDO etc. but if you see that these things have been developed by a 3rd world country then it's a quantum leap for us. So let's not abuse our ests who are working hard to develop defense systems. If you look at their success rate then it is perhaps better than some developed countries. It took us 30 yrs to develop Tejas as it is our 1st Jet and due to BJP langur's antics of exploding atom bombs instead of fire crackers this project and other dfens projects went decades back due to sanctions imposed on India. It takes time to build capabilities let's give all the support to our defense guys.

Anonymous said...

@Anon 3:30 am Haha So you are saying that India's Atomic test was a bad thing! LOL! Also, even if we add the initial time for project spec deciding even then Tejas took 28 years. On other Chinese are struggling for last 32 years with an helicopter WZ-10 and still cant make its engine! Oh and their WZ-10 despite being twice as heavy as Indias LCH, can only carry equal number of missiles (8). So LCH is 2X lighter and carries same! Oh BTW it took us only 4 years to develop LCH.

Anonymous said...

please see the blog corruptinindrdo by some ex employee and it will shock you. the TV cahnnels have some how ignored it or it would have been breaking stories of the CWG/2G scale, maybe shiv cal do it for sake of the country. he should do it please.

Anonymous said...

@1214 PM
while it might not have been bad for the country as a whole..undoubtedly some projects got delayed a result...

@1058 30years was since when we decided to set up the capabilities to build one...it was in the 90s that the first monies to developing the a/c came..

there is problem on this blog..ppl who dont criticize the govt and DRDO are called ratshakers...and they return in kind...now who started the name calling will have to be answered by the guy who saw it all from the first post..shiv

@501
are you saying china is taking off because it is allowing large fraction of FDI in defence???

i dont like the concept of the majority of shares of a company vital to indian defence being held by a foreign company

Anonymous said...

Anon 12.14 PM,
Testing the nuke devices were not mean't for any scientific purpose but to enhance BJP's political image. Due to this, we had to cap production of HDW subs to just 4 against the planned 6, Tejas FBW was not sufficiently developed as we were booted out half the way (one of the reasons why we now have Tejas MKII with better FBW tech as sanctions have been lifted), we stopped getting nuke tech and nuke fuel and became an international pariah at a time when we need investments and support from the global community. Had India not exploded those bombs, we would have been a generation ahead in several military and civilian projects. This is what happens when monkeys take control of the joystick .... on one hand they cry hoarse over "Hindutva" and on the otherhand their leaders write books praising Jinnah or go to Pakistan and pay homage to Jinnah.

Anonymous said...

We have managed to build the LCH bcoz we are not under sanctions. If we were under sanctions then even in 40 years we couldn't have build any chopper. Btw, the Dhruv is an MBB chopper and LCH's engine is a turbomeca engine.

Anonymous said...

@2:08 PM

RATshakers are those who have delusions of grandeur about DRDO/HAL etc. Why dont you people visit sites like http://www.corruptionindrdo.com/ and read what honest people in the organisation really think?

The fact is, anyone who has worked in HAL in blore (like myself) or knows someone who has will tell you that people there do ZILCH all day!

Believe it or not, we drifted all day, with lots of food, chatting and little work. I couldnt deal with the work ethic and subsequently quit. I know several VERY smart people who have done the same with some even going to the US and Europe. So the excuse that india doesn't have the knowledge is bullshit that suits ratshakers. Fact is, the whole organisation has gone to dogs. Even the IAF has become fedup and has requested to run it.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_iaf-officers-likely-to-head-hal-dgca_1562754

The problem with RATshakers is (if you visit their forum you will see) they live in a bubble and concoct stuff all day. Its a kind of mental masturbation and mental diarrhoea.

Its all good to be patriotic, I am. But you need to accept reality and expose the dirt within so that the country truely movs forward. THAT is patriotism, not just jumping up supporting PSUs no matter how corrupt they get. That sort of "patriotism" is best left to the pakis on forums like pdf.

If pvt companies are given a chance, far less could be imported. Further there would be more jobs in india, more tech etc.

http://www.businessstandard.com/india/news/rearmamentindia/442040/

See that.. particularly:

"Mahindra & Mahindra let the licence it obtained in 2003 for small firearms lapse because the government couldn’t decide one way or the other. “No decision came for five to six years; so we exited,” says Brig (retd) Khutub A Hai, the chief executive of Mahindra Defence Systems. That decision, for the record, has still not been made. Hai no longer wants to be in that business."

Anonymous said...

Anon 2.08 PM,
Vast number of critical components of Chinese and Russian weapons system are American.
China's economy took off due to massive FDI. And the dividends from a burgeoning economy helped finance their massive defense modernisation and expansion. Their stealth missile boats have been designed by an Australian company just like our Dhruv, Arihant, Arjun etc. have been designed and equipped by foreign companies. But that's not the point. The point is no company will share it's capabilities with it's competitors. Russians promised us complete transfer of tech for base model T90s years ago and today we are yet to get anything from them. If we have to develop capabilities then we must allow FDI more than 50 or 70%. When there is such massive investments they will look for components which will be built by Indian companies. Such Indian companies over a period of time will gain capabilities and move up on the value chain. These mega defense MNCs will also employ tens of thousands of our enggs etc who will be trained in the best practices. Such employees can themselves float their own companies or join Indian companies which have acquired the necessary capabilities. If we cap FDI less than 50%, then these companies won't invest and our Pvt sector simply do not have the expertise or capabilities to make advanced weapons system.

Anonymous said...

How exactly can you develop nukes without testing?..they should test more or give up pretension of a nuclear detterent.
It is not a BJP thing..the congress govt tried a no of times to test and did not because the Americans found out.

Anonymous said...

@1051..although i have put @you..this is a more general
i think you have your heart in the right place...but dont go into the pvt company =all good rant that goes on here...the picture is not black and white with pvt companies being the good guys and govt companies and labs being bad...

compare the civilian stuff...look @ cost and technology...
In many sectors where we have had to play catch up..how have we done...
lets look @ say automobile..
TATA Hyundai Honda Maruti Chevrolet ..maybe i missed a few..but except one..they are all foreign handmedowns ...these are the arguments often given here in favour of the pvt secot!!


We often point to the skill sets of these companies...most of them dont have any relevant capabilities..but if u grant it to them..they will build the next nuclear powered rocket ship to take you to mars...(now half the people will call me a ratshaker for saying that)..
there are people here who would want Mahindra to build the next gen fighter a/c coz they bought a company that builds small prop driven aircraft


while you may have worked at HAL n DRDO n seen corruption....are we to believe corporates are so damn clean..you can find lots of companies where employees dont have to do much yet gets lots of money....sure..if i name a company there will be people to say that is one company....people who dont work exist in every organization..
this of course is no reason to ignore corruption in govt organization....

are there no people who quit pvt organizations coz they dont like the way it is run and move on to greener pastures..but again..the argument would be that is one company and not necessarily the one that is going to be involved in the project

if n when u grant pvt companies R&D projects.[n not buy foreign brand indian].they will have to acquire the skillsets and then make it..whether they do it by hiring the people who worked in DRDO {now someone will come along and say the whole lot is unemployable} or go through the painful process of technology build up is to be seen

if u believe that simply pvtizing is the solution..you are living in the same thing that people who claim that everything is currently fine..a bubble..albeit a different one...

Anonymous said...

Well spoken Anon 7.53AM,
What has happened to all those Nav Ratna PSUs that were privatized by BJP literally without any bidding process?? What happened to VSNL, IPCL, Modern Foods etc.? All these companies were sold for a song and they were stripped of their assets after sale.These well known companies are absolutely no where today.
@Anon 10.51PM
If our DPSUs were so ineffective, how are we making nuke subs, remote sensing satellites (euphemism for spy satellites), rockets, radars, lasers etc. etc. and why companies like EADS, Boeing, BAE etc. are partnering with them?
Why Mahendra didn't utilize that license and build weapons on it's own for sale in international mkts instead of waiting for monopolistic Govt orders? Well the answer is they would have used such license to "partner" with a foreign company like BAE and simply stick M&M label on the product and sell it at inflated prices in connivance with babu-netas-sipahis. Although they have been making jeeps and SUVs for decades yet they bought an Israeli vehicle and branded it as Axe for sale to our army. Why should we purchase foreign stuff from such middlemen who add no value but on the contrary increase the cost of the product due to their "participation"? And finally don't forward links from BusinessStandard which has become a part of this scam to malign our DPSUs so that these corrupt Indian Pvt Cos get a share of the huge monopolistic defense sector. Earlier Ajai Shukla was taking the lead, but when his efforts became too obvious they have started using other dfens journos. Whatever BullSht BS (BizStd) tells us, take that with loads of salt.Let them report on finance, mkt and economy of which they know next to nothing.
Finally, the working condition and work ethics in Indian Pvt Cos are far worse than PSUs. I have worked in both setups and I know how "professional" Indian Pvt Cos (which r all owned by business families who started as petty traders).

Prahar said...

@Anon 6:54 PM and Anon at 7:53 Awesome comments. Thanks for sharing info.
First of all No defense organization in the whole world is free from delays.
And these organizations have an proven track records of maintaining high ethics and security. We developed Arihant nuclear sub and work on second has started, we are making aircraft carriers, making Agni-V and we made BMD. Our scientists dont go leaking information to highest bidder like your AQ Khan who is an international criminal.

deb g said...

what India needs to develop now is Sky or land based lasers like us to shoot down any hostile missiles in its' booster phase inside enemy territory and Stealth UCAVs to strike the terrorist camps deep inside enemy territory and guts for the politicians of any rulling party, to teke appropriate actions like Israel's Mosad's "Opp. Wrath Of God" after Black september in munich.

deb g said...

What India needs to develop now is a sky and land based laser to take out any incoming missiles, 65 squadron Air force (25 for pakistan and 40 for china), 120+ helecopter gunships with anti infantry and anti tank armament and 4000 modern tanks 2000 light tanks, Ultra light, towed, self propelled howitzers, MBRLs in adequet number for army, 3 40,000 ton carriers , one 65,000+ ton capable of carring Naval FGFA and MRCA and MCA. 16 nuclear subs (4 SSBN and 12 SSN) and 24 SSKs with AIP,multipurpose Light crusiers, stealth Frigates, drestroyers, ASw corvets. more importantly stealthy UCAVs to destroy terrorist camps in pakistan. But Most importantly, another brave leader Like late Mrs. Indira Gandhi, to take actions, not these old-fox soon to die thieves, their scam full children and a royal prince.