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23 Comments

  1. 1

    Anonymous

    my God what details about ATV

    shiv can I have your cell number

    Sheena

    Reply
  2. 2

    Shiv Aroor

    sheena: uh, you can write to me at [email protected]. thanks.

    Reply
  3. 3

    Srirangan

    Thanks for posting, bookmarked for later read.

    – Sri

    Reply
  4. 4

    Sniperz11

    And what is your recommendation Shiv??? shut down the project? Open it up and release all info, so that our enemies know what they are up against?? Buy Russian nuclear subs???

    I suggest that you immediately write a new post- your Manifesto and views about our defence, and what you want to do about it. I for one think you are being paid to write these propaganda pieces.

    Again, Shiv, you give no reason or scientific explanation about the hyperbolic conclusions that you come to.

    For example, I cannot find any place in your article that has elaborated on how the scientists had misled the leadership. No facts, no explanation, nothing. You just state them and slip them into the piece.

    You have used (“quoted”, as a shield, of course) words like “self-perpetuating monster” & “singularly monumental bungling”, without giving any explanation or elaboration… and all your sources are ‘retired officers’, never the scientists who you lambast repeatedly. While what the offrs. say may be partly correct, you could have at least shown a little decency by getting the other side of the story as well. Perhaps we should set up a phone bill fund to pay for your calls to DRDO and the AEC.

    Firstly, When you talk about how the “public was kept in the dark”, do you honestly think that the estabishment would give out status reports on such a sensitive project, one that they have refused to confirm even now? And what gives you any authority to ask for such reports? Such programs are kept secret- both their successes and failures alike, and should and will remain as such.

    Secondly, What about funding, something that all our programs have to fight to death for. How about the fact that all their funding would have been strangled by the economic crisis and reforms in the early 90s? do you think the US faced that? I doubt it.

    Thirdly, when you talk about how easily the US could make these reactors, you forget that they had all the money they wanted, the enormous expertise needed, and the had enough experience in building reactors. When did we build our first reactor??? TAPS was american, CIRUS Canadian. Kalpakkam was our first indigenous reactor, and went critical only in 83′. Dhruva went critical only in ’85 and faced severe problems till ’85.

    Fourth, Naval reactors are absolutely nothing like the normal ones- they run on HEU- at least 20%- weapons grade Uranium. making them compact and keeping them stable is a huge leap, and requires a lot of research, something no nation will help us with.

    Coming to the technological gaps in our knowledge, which we have had to painstakingly build up over the years. We had zero sub-building knowledge, no knowledge about naval reactors, no know how about Nuclear-sub operation, nothing about integration and testing, and almost no knowledge about how those reactors worked. All these have been painstakingly built up over the years, in the absence of outside help, in a vacuum.

    The ATV is like the LCA, Arjun and IGMDP projects. The technology and expertise gained are essential to us and are the foundation stones for further developments. Just as you see the IJT, Su-30MKI and MCA projects building on the LCA, you will see other projects building on the ATV. If bean counters like you recommend shutting down these projects,you forget these obvious and needed spinoffs that they bring, and i’m thankful that you people are not in the position to stop them.

    Reply
  5. 6

    Shiv Aroor

    anon: before another sermon of a comment (!), do read the introduction to this piece. this was not written by me. these are inputs compiled by me from the two officers mentioned in the intro. these are their views, not mine. having said that, i actually don’t think this is a one-sided piece — do read it carefully. as for me, it’s getting old defending the same old stuff and hitting a stone-wall, so this time anon, i’m not going to bother! but feel free to let your sermons keep coming! second, not that i need to clarify this, but i actually was a science student till class 12. that should satisfy your theories about my saboteur instinct?

    Reply
  6. 7

    zippo

    anon: that’s uncalled for. dont bring personal stuff into this space. if you want to flame aroor, flame him on the right turf. i do that all the time! but since you brought it up, let’s be fair here — it was aroor who walked out of his marriage with shaili chopra, because he was involved with a girl called anita tripathi, who’s now an anchor with IBN (quite a looker too, i’m told). not that any of this matters, but just! i worked with aroor in his DDM express days.

    Reply
  7. 8

    Shiv Aroor

    sniperz11: could you please read my reply to the first anon. i have only compiled this post. everything in it, the language for most part, is from the officers who’re writing a book. this is just part of it. i just strung it all together, that’s all. wow, another raw nerve!

    Reply
  8. 9

    Shiv Aroor

    zippo: this is all totally unnecessary on this blog. can we not get into people’s personal lives? i mean, come on!

    Reply
  9. 10

    Sniperz11

    Shiv,

    What you say may be true. That may probably be why the whole piece looks disjointed and out of context at places.

    But washing your hands off it because you didn’t write it is just escapist, and allows you to say what you want, without taking the stick for it.

    Plus, it is your responsibility to make sure that what you say is not only accurate but objective as well, preserving the context. After all, I’m sure that your sources would have written much much more about the ATV project and not just about the DRDO and AEC failures.

    And yet, if you chose only to post the parts that you identified with, that is not the mistake of the writers, its the mistake of the editor- you. Thats just like Yudhistira’s reply to Drona- Aswatthama(the elephant) is Dead.

    As for the raw nerves, I dont think so. Any person who lives on defence forums must have pretty strong nerves. Strong feelings, maybe. Certainly not raw nerves. I’m eager to read the next part of this series… and, if necessary, tear it apart.

    P.S.: I think you really should write a manifesto of your beliefs and recommendations for DRDO and the Services. That would really help clear a lot of stuff up, and help us pin you down. :>

    Cheers.

    Reply
  10. 11

    Anonymous

    Something totally out of the topic, if people want to get personal, they should have the [email protected] to sign their own name rather than some anon call sign.

    Reply
  11. 12

    Anonymous

    Shiv,

    I doubt if you were any good at science or as a science student. Because what you are doing is contrary to any scientific approach. You attribute stuff to nameless sources and then print them without using ANY brains at all. A science student, or anyone who has worked in engineering wouldnt be as cocksure and as silly as you are on a consistent basis.

    Zippo

    Thanks for the update- had heard differently, I guess its a matter of perspective. Either ways, this dude is one frustrated chap and it can be seen from his rant(writ)ings.

    Anon,

    thanks for being anon yourself and saying hey dont be anon!

    Gee wow, brilliant saar! U must be working for indian express

    I am anon coz I cant be bothered with signing up with this website and service navigate some half a dozen pages. I get paid for each minute every day. Thats more important to me. Slamming Aroor for his stupidity (and general lack of ethics, personal and professional BOTH) is just a public service.

    Reply
  12. 13

    Anonymous

    what is funny is tht i just came back from an army bash, with fair sprinkling of army waalahs, old foggies, and young turks. i turned the topic to drdo, mixed opinions, but generally said it is doing a job which is hard and is not all bad like media says. the signals ppl are happy with drdo and so is the army artillery air defence fr some electronics war stuff and radars/

    coming to arjun, the recent tests went well, so i really think shiv aroor makes a lot of stff up or just uses masala for mirchi to make the report spicy

    that is ok for reporting on shilpashetty bt to report on defnece you need to have more ethics

    like all this stuff on ATV frm rtd officers..till now whatever he has printed is stuff i can get from 15 minutes of google!!!

    but he says to believe him coz he is …shiv aroor.

    cmon boss, why are u fooling people.

    u really just copy paste stuff from GOI reports or google stuff. really unsure wheter you know anything about the atv or any serious project. i know drdo treats you with contempt.

    also last thing, i mentioned ur name amongst my buds and asked about ur rep–reply” woh jorunalist hain, saale sab ko chutiya banate hain”,,, i guess that is indian publics experience with ur breed!

    Reply
  13. 14

    Anonymous

    Not wanting to sign up on the site is a pathetic excuse to be anon.. you can still sign your actual name under your comment rather than some stupid nickname tha tno one knows about.

    Reply
  14. 15

    Anonymous

    anon, the last one: First you had your signature/name undersigned then you can give lectures to others.

    Reply
  15. 16

    Mihir Shah

    Sheesh! Anon v/s Anon! You could be the same person for all we know!

    Reply
  16. 17

    Anonymous

    ROTFLMAO…tell me about it..

    Yet another anon!! I’d take ur comments seriously u sanctimonious twit, if you werent anon yourself.

    Jai (anon)

    PS :I hope you knocked yourself out, and gave your privates a good going over in excitement now u know my name

    Reply
  17. 18

    Mihir Shah

    Shiv,
    This made for interesting reading. Nuclear-powered submarines are as “black” as military projects can be. If the scientists managed to mislead the Navy on this one, it would be child’s play for them to mislead a journalist or some people on an internet forum. A plant here, a leak there… and the ATV is anything they want it to be. So I’m going to take every report about it with a pinch of salt… nothing is clear until an ATV takes to the sea.

    Second, I believe you fail to appreciate the engineering challenges that come along with a project like this. Comparison to the United States’ success would be unfair. For one, the Americans had the kind of funding that Indian scientists dare not dream about. They also had immense experience in submarine design and development – something India still doesn’t have. Then there is the reactor itself. Like Sniper said, India’s first reactor went critical only in 1983 – more than a decade after the ATV was envisioned. So the question of which reactor to install was severely compounded by the fact that the scientists didn’t know which reactor they were capable of making. Add to that the problems of reliability, shielding, and miniaturization, – problems that designers of land based reactors never face – and you might better appreciate the situation of the scientists. Maybe they set their goals too high, maybe they were too confident of their own abilities, and maybe they didn’t deliver the goods on time, but I would say that they didn’t even know enough about this business to even provide a rough estimate of the completion date. And we have no option but to continue funding and other forms of support. Phoren help will never come the way it did for other projects like the LCA. India is well and truly alone on this one.

    I would like to add that Soviet experience with nuke submarines has been painful to say the least, in spite of the kind of resources they had at their disposal. Their earlier designs were flawed, dangerous, and unreliable – leading to the loss of many subs and their crews. The USSR could stomach that failure. If such things happen to the ATV, the media and politicians will roast everyone even remotely attached to the project alive. his is something Indian scientists have to think about, I’m sure.

    Reply
  18. 19

    Anonymous

    Shaili left you. Great. That chick is classy.

    Reply
  19. 20

    Anonymous

    It is Shaili walked off on Shiv. His only claim to fame.

    Reply
  20. 21

    Anonymous

    anon totally unwarranted bud. what all this you are bringing here. keep this stuff for BR and other such places. btw shiv’s new gf is a chick called amrita tripathi in cnn.ibn. he obviously has a fetish for classy hot anchor type women.

    Reply
  21. 22

    uint32

    Wait and watch.
    DRDO (except for agni/prithvi)
    has a great record of failures.

    Remember much hyped about
    project ARJUN MBT (kalam).
    Failure.

    Akash/Nag.

    So the proverb
    Operation success.patiend died.
    suits DRDO as of now.

    So wait till the nuclear sub
    is induced after trials.

    Reply

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