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23 Comments

  1. 1

    Anonymous

    Thnks. Will be waiting for more on the same, Shiv.

    Vishal

    Reply
  2. 2

    Asit

    Wonder what they’ll actually get to iron out in 55 minutes

    Dear Shiv I admire your resourcefullness and read your blog quite regularly. However many a time I get the impression that your articles are prejudiced against Russia!! I guess this is absolutely unwarranted. You may hate Russia to the core but they are still our most reliable partners.

    Please understand the fact that its not the quantity of time spent in the meeting but its the quality of discussion in the meeting which matters the most.

    Reply
  3. 3

    Anonymous

    and the mig-29k follow-on order will be signed.

    Reply
  4. 4

    Anonymous

    From Shiv’s surprised tone, it appears that from morning newspaper reports he comes to know that the Russkies are here!!

    Wow, so much for a senior special defence correspondent in a TV channel.Good

    We also have read all the papers Shiv.

    Reply
  5. 5

    Vishal Nalkur

    Hey Shiv and all,

    Read about the “10 year” extension of agreement for military co-operation signed on today. What does that exactly mean?

    Reply
  6. 6

    Anonymous

    all these fucking corrospondents
    and blog writers need some masala
    to post so they get russia to critisize but they never looked what v r paying to russia for purchase compared to same purchase if v buy from western countries

    Reply
  7. 7

    Anonymous

    to everyone

    IN GORSHKOV ALL

    engines r new

    boilers r new

    elctrical systems r new

    wirings r new

    heating,referegeration and air conditioning r new

    radars r new

    combat systems r new

    arresting wires r new

    some change of old inner configuraton of ship for storage of fighters and helos acco to navy requirement

    hull strenthning

    new shaping of the landing deck for aircraft take off

    all these systems can’t b employed
    simultaneously but only one after one

    cuz all these systems r new and these r also required in a new ship of same size that russians using in gorky
    thats y they r expensive

    and doing all this in a old ship is much more complicated than building a new ship and it takes time

    infact the ship will sport all new systems except for hull

    although gorshkov is delayed it will cost us around 1.7-1.8 billion
    after renegotiation

    but v still save around
    $ 1.5-2 billion cuz new ship will
    cost us $ 3.5-4 billion

    and IF these “blog writers” hav nothing to post they critisize and come up with GORSHKOV ISSUE without looking y russia asking more money and y it is delayed

    Reply
  8. 8

    Anonymous

    TO every one

    infact “all corrospondents and blog writers of different blogs” criticise russia

    but they hav no explanation to some points

    y mirage upgrade deal $ 1 billion is costlier than mig 29 upgrade deal,mirages will not hav new engines

    y just 24 harpoon missiles costs us $ 170 million ,our brahmos is cheaper than harpoon
    ———————————————
    y c130j deal will costs us
    $ 1.2 billion for just 6 aircrafts

    then IL72,78 r chealper than c130j
    ——————————————–
    y P8I deal is $ 2.2 billion costly
    just for 8 aircraft

    P8I deal with each aircraft costs us “EXORBITANT 275 MILLION PER PIECE”
    and aircraft have inferior range and payload compared to present aircraft AND V R READY TO PAY

    OLDER P3 ORION HAS BETTER RANGE
    ——————————————

    y rd33-3 engine deal costs us
    $ 250 million for 120 engines so each engine costs us only 2 million
    compared to ge404 which costs us around 5-6million
    ——————————————–
    y al55 engine deal is less costly than snecma larzec engine deal

    ———————————————–
    y the deal for 40 more su30mki costs us $ 2.2 billion compared to

    24 f16 bought by morrocco costs
    $ 2.4 billion

    24 f18 aussies bought for
    $ 2.8 billion
    ———————————————–
    s.korea bought 24 apaches for
    $ 811 million bucks and that was

    60% below the factory price but even now each apache costs
    $ 33 million per piece

    v bought 80 mi17v5 for $ 1 billion

    and even now sengupta sees mi17 deal as costly deal but what about all deals above

    Reply
  9. 9

    Prasun K Sengupta

    To [email protected]: All you are doing is quoting the procurement costs. Can you give us a breakdown of total life-cycle costs? Do you have them? Because that’s what the majority of world’s countries, India included now, give priority to when drawing up the techno-economic matrix for realising their force modernisation objectives. Until then, don’t jump to any half-baked conclusions.

    Reply
  10. 10

    Anonymous

    to sengupta

    All you are doing is quoting the procurement costs. Can you give us a breakdown of total life-cycle costs? Do you have them?

    Until then, don’t jump to any half-baked conclusions.
    ———————————————–

    ITS U GUYS THAT JUMP TO HALF BAKED CONCLUSION AND WRITE THESE BLOGS WITHOUT GOING FOR TRUTH LIKE GORSHKOV ISSUE

    its not me who jumped to half backed conclusions ,these r the well prooven conclusions and for those conclusions u have no answers.

    y buy inferior system by paying more money just like
    P8I ,HARPOON if a better system can b bought for less

    first v need to look at the procurement costs why it is too
    high if those system
    r inferior to current systems

    their upgrading costs is waaaaay
    higher like mirage upgrade case

    THEN WHY DID IAF TURNED DOWN 40
    RAFALES OFFERED BY FRANCE

    why did al55 engine was bought y not larzec engine

    then y did any naval ship like frigate or destroyer has been bought from west

    rd 33-3,mk engine is more than a
    to m88-2 and ej 2000

    y JUNK JALASHAV BOUGHT FROM USA
    V COULD BOUGHT HMS INVINCIBLE

    if life cycle cost is higher then IAF,army would not go for
    su30mki,mi17 helo,il78 tanker,
    t 90 tank

    AND navy would not buy additional ships from russia

    Reply
  11. 11

    Anonymous

    to senguta

    first u provide life cycle cost for russian systems and

    stop criticising others

    first do u r home work and

    look at this with open eyes

    australia pays $ 1 bilion a year for 24 f18 s/h for support and maintaince and for 40 years
    they will pay upto 40 billion+
    upgrade cost extra

    and if they have 126 f18 s/h like our mrca they have to pay around
    $ 5 billion for support and maintaince per year

    and for 40 years life cycle cost for 126 f18 s/h will b $160 billions dollars+upgrade costs extra

    if v have 126 rafales their upgrade alone cost around $ 7 billion (if u calculate according to mirage upgrade deal cost) cuz rafale is a twin engine aircrat

    typhoon,rafale have higher initial price +their upgrading cost will b waaaaaay higher than russian aircraft +

    rafale,typhoon,f18 no desicive advantage against mig35 so y their
    costs for procurement ,upgrading maintaince is higher

    Reply
  12. 12

    Prasun K Sengupta

    To [email protected]: I went through your ‘thesis’ above in great detail, but still could not find any mention opf the breakdown of total life-cycle costs? Do you have them? Please? And what’s the truth about INS Vikramaditya/GORSHKOV, apart from the fact that the previous top management of FSUE SEVMASH went AWOL with the money given to Rosoboronexport by the Govt of India? If that money was paid to any European or South Korean shipyard in 2004, by 2006 the Indian Navy would have had two LHDs/LPDs. The only reason India ordered the three follow-on Project 1135.6 FFGs is because Russia’s won’t pay India back the last tranche of the US$2.5 billion which it owes as part of the final settlement of the Rupee-Rouble trading system of the Soviet era.

    Reply
  13. 13

    Anonymous

    Mr sengupta

    for u r comment

    The only reason India ordered the three follow-on Project 1135.6 FFGs is because Russia’s won’t pay India back the last tranche of the US$2.5 billion which it owes as part of the final settlement of the Rupee-Rouble trading system of the Soviet era.
    ——————————————————–
    Project 1135.6 FFGs costs bit over
    $ 1.5 billion not $ 2.5 billion

    and mind u three additional frigates on order to russia after current order of 3 frigates

    Reply
  14. 14

    Anonymous

    to sengupta

    If that money was paid to any European or South Korean shipyard in 2004, by 2006 the Indian Navy would have had two LHDs/LPDs
    ————————————————-

    india paid intially $ 800 million for gorky
    and
    no western shipyard will ever respond to that rfp for the money envolved

    how much australia paying to spain for its 3 f 100 ships and 2 canberra class ship and its around
    $ 11 billion

    and gorshkov price is much lower than the above

    Reply
  15. 15

    Mayuresh Gaikwad

    Guys,

    I have a query. I know that our navy and airforce is seriously small as compared to the chinese. However, I read somewhere that many of the chinese ships / aircraft are essentially outdated and pretty much sitting ducks.

    Can someone (Prasun / Shiv / Anonymous) do a quality and quantity comparison of India and China w.r.t Navy and Air-force? Else can one of you point me to some report that does it?

    Thanks!

    Reply
  16. 16

    Anonymous

    Hey Mayuresh

    Go to youtube and type Indian navy Vs China navy. You will find a video posted by some "KashSoldier". The comparison videos between Indian & Chinese Navy and Airforces were posted by "KashSoldier". I dont know whether the information in that video is accurate or not. But it makes some sence to me.

    Anil Reddy

    Reply
  17. 17

    Anonymous

    su 30mki prodcution stated almost 3 years before f22 production started

    US has almost 100 of them in commission and 22 more delivered

    v have only 60 su30mki in commission

    any answer?

    Reply
  18. 18

    Mayuresh Gaikwad

    Hi Anil,

    I have seen the video and know that KashSoldier is quite a credible source. However, the number of Ships and aircraft fielded by China is quite huge, so I wanted to verify if indeed most of the chinese weaponry is outdated and will not stand our weapons. Hence asking one of the better informed journos on this blog for help. Having said that, I think we need to invest a lot more in defence, we are falling way short of our requirements!

    @ Anon (F-22 one, 7:41 AM) – it is mostly about the money. When we spend as much as the US does on defence (USD 500 billion), I am sure we can have 100 Su-30 MKIs per year. Further, I am not sure if we have started manufacturing all parts of the Su-30MKI in India, though HAL has begun assembly. Importing parts also has its own constraints

    Reply
  19. 19

    Anonymous

    money is not the constraint it because of lazyness of our top officials

    in the same context china has 400 sukhois and v have only 60

    v got the tot for mki but it proved costly to indegenize

    that y v need to import parts from russia directly

    just think the tot for mrca will help us or not will v successfully indegenize the tot for mrca

    china successfully indegenize the su27 except engines what v can do

    Reply
  20. 20

    Prasun K Sengupta

    To Mayuresh [email protected]: When comparing the force levels of both China and India one needs to bear in mind that the PLA Navy and Air Force are primarily Taiwan- and Japan-centric in terms of their immediate threat perceptions. Therefore, the bulk of their deployed assets are in southeast and northeast China (this being also to keep a weary eye toward the Korean Peninsula). Having said that, if the PRC maintains the momentum of improving its rail/road/air transportation logistics infrastructure throughout the Tibet Autonomnous Region then within a decade India will have a formidable threat scenario to contend with all the way from Turtuk in J & K all the way to the China-India-Bhutan trijunction from a neighbour with the intent and capability to engage in high-intensity but limited air-land campaigns. With regard to naval expeditionary warfare and maritime force projection the PLA Navy has a distinct edge over India now but this might remains focussed against Taiwan. I do not foreseee such an expeditionary forces entering the Bay of Bengal or Indian Ocean via the Malacca, Sunda or Lomkok Straits in the near future. But the PLA Navy's undersea warfare capabilities are formidable as it has a growing fleet of nuclear-powered SSNs. And up to four of their new-generation DDGs (Nos 115, 116, 170 and 171) are already equipped with long-range surface-to-air missiles and can also launch the 300km-range C-602 anti-ship cruise missile. Hope this helps you.

    On a totally unrelated note, I just saw on Al Jazeera English an interview of the Chief of Afghan National Intelligence, Amirullah Salleh (a former aide to the legendary Ahmed Shah Masood) who revealed that in late 2006 his agency had arrested an ISI operative who had helped Osama bin Laden to seek shelter in the Chitral part of Pakistan's no-go Northern Areas soon after Osama's retreat from Tora Bora. It seems he's still holed up there.

    Reply
  21. 22

    Mayuresh Gaikwad

    Hi Prasun,

    Thanks for the comment. Taiwan and S.Korea are almost US colonies, so I suspect, majority of the threat perception is from the fact that these are major US bases in Asia. Probably even Japan, do not know much of that. However, as you rightly pointed out, the way China is expanding its defence capabilities, It might surely pose a threat to India. Especially with its submarines. I seriously think our navy is quite small comsiderign the fact that we have such a large coastline to protect and are placed right in the center of the world’s most unstable part, surrounded by Pak, B’desh, Mynamar, China, all of which are almost totalitarian regimes and capable of either backstabbing or directly attacking India

    Reply
  22. 23

    Mayuresh Gaikwad

    Looks like I screwed up in the previous comment. Even the US seems ambigouos in its support of Taiwan Vs. PRC!

    Reply

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