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Let Bhishma fight Arjun again.
We know who won that battle the first time
Nice tank. Quality looks good. I hope it humps the overweight, terminally late, undergunned Arjun, yet another sparkling product from the local defence agencies where overreaching is not a dirty word.
you should also tell which gunner sight is installed russian or french?
but we need both t90 and arjun
cute and cutly killer. So slender. Could be easly handle ..hmm
On Aug 6th, you reported that the Army had issued an RFI for advanced thermal imager/panaromic night sight. And I pointed out that the Army tried to use a French one, but gave up as it and other western ones needed air-conditioning.The clam shaped turret (4th image) shows a bare rear. Wouldn't this be an ideal place for fitting an air-conditioning system. A commerical split design ~2500 BTU militarized version would even cool the occupant's arses.
[Vincent hat on]
The T-90 is junk. A pathetic tank that can't shoot straight, coming from a country of vodka-chugging maniacs who can't do a thing right. And bought by a bunch of flea-infested slumdogs who are a lesson in mediocrity. Only if they'd learn from us TFTA Westerners who are the leaders when it comes to everything under the sun.
I shall now go on a round of my neighbourhood and compare the size of my schlong with that of two-year-old Russian kids to rid myself of these feelings of inadequacy.
[/Vincent hat off]
Some L- General is claiming this is unrivalled by adverseries accross the border. I personally think the Chinese are way ahead in tank development vs India.
Does it signal a quite burial of the Arjun tank? It looks like Arjun will've a symbolic presence in the Indian army; nothing more.
nice poics Siv.. I am still looking for your promised article of LCA.
Arjun tank zindabad
Immaculate in photos.
But need to speed up delivery from 100 to 250 per annum. INDIA is going to build 1000 of these babies, Is the Army so stupid as to wait 10 years for delivery completion. The Avad factory is holding back production, so that they can have job security, that's the only card they hold, as they're otherwise incompetent.
Also need simulators to train crew to handle day to day and critical-war functioning's mechanically.
India needs both Arjun and T-90's. So let there be 126 Arjun MK-1 and 1000 Arjun MK-II and around 2000 T-90's. That will take the number of tanks to around 3000 which is a still a small number but still advanced in technology.
The Arjun are needed to be left behind to choke the roads when the divisions retreat, engine still running.
Tanks are one area where I don't not believe that India needs the costly Western versions, which are designed to hold off nearly impossible odds.
Serviceable samples like the pics above are perfectly fine.
For aircraft however…
It seems Israel is helping us to develop Arjun mk2 , Avadi tank factory has the capacity to manufacture 400 tanks per year , but it has not been utilized upto it , 100 nos p/year is not good news . DRDO should complete mk2 version of Arjun tank as soon as possible for massive production , mostly our 3 forces don't like indian products( only navy is placing some of the orders in indian docks ) , at least they want sticker which shows it is made in abroad . as like mk2 arjun , LCA mk2 also should be made in fastrack, otherwise our IAF will forget LCA. Our india hardly need Howitzer in decent numbers which we face high depletion , we are facing highly unpreparedness .
china is manufacturing MBRL massively (350 mm with 130 km & 180 kms variants ) to attack any moment. most of the countries are ready to co-operate with india for tech transfer / co development , but india is not making utilizing it.
Any tank-enthusiast worth his salt respects the Indian Arjun… sure it’s a 58.5 ton behemoth, but you’re not going to ride an MBT into Siachen kid! You need a light tank (go find out what that is..) for the northeast and Laddakh region and an MBT for the deserts of Rajasthan and the plains of Punjab… What you are confused about is a report saying that the Arjun was too wide to be transported by rail – Well! We already have Arjun-specific wagons and the reporter didn’t know about this.. 🙂Now its gun is extremely accurate contrary to what you would like to believe, a stark contrast compared to the T72 legacy… Shiv will vouch for it I believe… It does seem to have some issues with high-temperature sustenance but I believe that BEL has come up with a solution for that now…Also, it’s built around the hit-survival design-policy – so that means you’re likely to come back home in your tank instead of a coffin if your commander sent you into battle in one. During the trials in 2000, its Kanchan armour was able to withstand a hit from a T-72 at point blank range, and was able to defeat all available HESH and FSAPDS (I'll not tell you what that is…) rounds, which included the Israeli FSAPDS rounds. A new honeycomb design non-explosive and non-energetic reactive armour (NERA) armour is reportedly being tested on the Arjun.An independent evaluation of the tank by a reputed tank manufacturer found that the the MBT Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and fire power characteristics. The Indian army now seems to be happy with it and the Indian Army Chief stated in a letter that "the tank was subjected to the most strenuous of tests and it performed 'admirably' well". The regiment using it are also too happy – I guess Shiv met one sometime back… So what’s your problem??! If any, you should be having problem with the corrupt, delusive generals who are bent upon shelving the project…Sabotage had been suspected in previous tests with the army denying it… So just how did the evil hulk become so saintly overnight is a mystery to me.. There is another comparative trial due between the Arjun and the T-90S and I’m sure that it will continue to kick the Russian butt like it did before…. ???
Dear Kid, my final suggestion is, please READ! Don’t utter stuff you don’t know about and most of all, don’t talk bad uselessly unless you have verifiable evidence….
PS:I do sincerely hope that Shiv approves all my vitriolic passion about the hulk.. took a lot of effort to write all this, even a PC crash… 🙂
Now the T72 family (and in general all Russian tanks), are built around the hit-avoidance policy… (you don’t know what’s that either or you won’t ever praise the T90…). They have a carousel autoloader with the ammunition reserve being accommodated on the turret floor. The design policy is now known to be terribly flawed… All the Russian tanks have taken a bad beating wherever they’ve been to – In fact, in mid-1982 in Lebanon the 105mm APFSDS rounds fired by Israeli Merkava Mk1 MBTs with 105mm rifled-bore guns routinely pierced the Syrian T-72M’s front glacis, went straight through the MBT and exited through the engine compartment, leaving a turretless hulk behind. The Indian Army got a first-hand demonstration of the T-72M’s acute vulnerability in October 1987 when LTTE guerrillas exploded improvised explosive devices underneath two T-72Ms deployed with 65 Armoured Regiment for Operation Pawan during the battle for Jaffna, which resulted in armour penetration and the ensuing catastrophic detonation of the MBT’s ammunition reserve (this being stored in a carousel autoloader on the turret’s floor), resulting in the turrets being blown off. Subsequent events in 1991 during Operation Desert Storm would convincingly highlight the T-72M’s totally flawed design features. You can actually burst a firecracker underneath any current Russian tank and hope to be disappointed if it doesn’t blow off its turret 20 feet in the air… 🙂I’m not a soldier, just a defense enthusiast, but mere general knowledge and common sense tells me enough that I wouldn’t want to go into a battle in a Russian tank…Its gun is also nowhere near the accuracy needed for today’s needs. So how about a tank that doesn’t hit its target in time??! Infact, it’s a very well kept secret that the Indian army didn’t want it at the time of its inception.. but thanks to the corrupt Indian Babus and Netas, the Indian armoured cavalry was given the 45-ton piece of crap…
More about the T90S – its sighting and fire control system is garbage. I would be generous enough to give you a link for this one, though I doubt that you will be able to make anything out of it though.. Here’s it:http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/2009/08/whats-wrong-with-t-90s-mbts-fire.htmlHere again we have a night-blind lion that “runs very fast but stutters instead of roar commandingly”…
Actually the army was forced into getting the T90S only because of the delays in the delivery of the Arjun… but then its not completely the DRDO’s fault… what else do you expect if you keep shifting your goalposts every few months which is exactly what the army generals did! In fact, recently they want the DRDO to build a new tank “from the scratch”… They have bonded (alas! again..) with the Russians to this effect.. I just wonder why not the Israelis who have a battle hardened tank like the Merkava.. Any tank-enthusiast knows that tank design is evolutionary… So I guess the army generals are dreaming of a sci-fi tank straight out of a video game that would fly apart from being completely indestructible…
I must say I'm seriously irked with reading you routine snobbery. I think you should do some research before uttering stuff about things you know don’t nothing about! For a proof that you’re really an ignoramus, even a tank-designer can’t judge the “quality” of a tank from merely its “looks”…And maybe you shouldn’t say anything about the “quality” of the Arjun as well since now you know that you don’t know the tank gentry very well… 🙂
Now that said, here’s some fact about the T72, the T90 and the Arjun…
The version exported to India is the T90S, a “widely improved” variant of the T72B/M (that’s what the Russians call it..).
The T72B was originally intended to be the “quantity” tank along with the “quality” T80U since the Russian Defense Ministry announced that it could no longer afford to manufacture two main battle tanks in parallel. Now we all best remember the T80 as the “burning tank”… (I doubt if you know anything about what I’m talking of, but since I don’t spoon feed babies who know how to blabber nonsense on defense blogs, you’ll have to do your own research…). So much for the Russian “quality”.. India got the “improved” T72B and Pakistan sourced the T80U from Ukraine.
A big waste of time, energy and money…
a)The 1st Gulf War proved that tanks are nothing more than target practice for aircraft/attack helicopters.b)Lebanon, Iraq, Chechnya, Afghanistan have repeatedly proved that militants can easily neutralize tanks with IEDs/truck bombs. And we all know Pak has a lot of 'em – militants.c)Analysts have predicted that in the next war with Pak, the moment indian strike/armoured formations break through Pak formations they will be nuked.
So when we know the uselessness of tanks because of the above points why are we continuing to invest in arjuns, bhishmas? Well… some generals (shakuni mamas) are making a loooooooot of money – that's all this is about.
Anon@ 4:15 AM
ROFL! Well done. That Anglo-Sax troll is quite predictable and boring, now that he has revealed his true colours. Look forward to him disappearing and coming back under another username, but this time raising 'doubts' in a more subtle fashion.
We'll know who he is anyway. 😉
Let me fillet your post, Warrior Poofter. Let me, for the sake of your enlightenment.
For all your criticism of the Russian T-90, which I generally agree is inferior to Western models, you seem to think the Arjun is comparable to Western models. I disagree. The Arjun will be holed more than the products at a doughnut factory should it come up against a Western tank. It appears on surface to have the same systems as a Western tank but that is superficial.
Ergo, for reasons of cost savings, it is better for a third world military like India to mass produce a ready made tank than to slowly produce highly expensive, limited edition tanks like the Arjun which don't come up to Western standards anyway (and its not even indigineous, given that all the sights and fire control are made in France).
Another reason is that you won't need a superb tank to deal with the Pakistanis or the Chinese. Their tanks are T-55 and T-72 variations as well, and except for some research into ERA, generally would not have a sizeable quality advantage against Indian T-90s. Of course, if you're thinking of expeditionary warfare, and that would be decades in the future, something like the Abrams would be useful.
Yet another reason is that Indian tank crews are not very good. They only started training air and land battle coordination last year (link below). Their tactics are still primarily Russian. Using a Western like tank would just be a waste of good resources unless Western trainers come to train Indian crew as well. The Arjun therefore is a doubly no-go. Stop concentrating on the superficial.
(In the biggest war game in recent years, the military stressed on the concept of combined land and air warfare as different to the past attrition style of warfare where one arm played the significant role.)
What India must do is to invest in Western air systems, to gain air dominance (not even supremacy) over Pakistan and air parity against China, the latter so that your thousand T-90s don't get bombed to bits of metal and scorched flesh.
Don't thank me for teaching you now, pass it on.
^^ who ever this asshole is he ca not use words like"And bought by a bunch of flea-infested slumdogs who are a lesson in mediocrity. "if you know his identity please put him here, we will fcku him!
Dear Warrior Buddha,
Your posts are appreciated – but pls. ignore Vincent…he is just a 5 yr. old monkey with access to the keyboard.
He generally justs googles, and copies and pastes stuff…but has no knowledge of what he's talking about.
He's a complete nuisance to this blog (read his others posts in this blog also) so we folks should all just ignore him.
When you say the Arjun is 'undergunned' did u mean its 120mm gun is less in calibre than the 120mm gun of the British Challenger or the 120mm gun of the American M1?…duh!!
Maybe you didn't google correctly this time?…surprising since that's ur expertise.
Clearly you are full of shit – so don't waste people's time on this blog so that the rest of us can have meaningful exchange of thougts and discussions.
Undergunned because my idiotic friend, the calibre of a tank barrel is not as important as the quality of the round or the length and quality of the gun.
That's why the Russians built a 125mm gun, because they still don't have the rounds to penetrate an Abrams, so they compensate the lower velocity with a bigger round, and because the latest NATO 120 mm rounds easily outrange and outperform even the Russian 125mm rounds, thanks in part to the German made guns, but also due to the NATO standard rounds.
(The M829E3 is the Army's next generation 120mm Armor-piercing Tank round. It replaces the M829A1 and the M829A2 projectiles. These rounds are widely regarded as the most effective tank-fired anti-armor weapons in the world. The E3 round will provide the army greater armor penetration capability than its two predecessors and also with improved accuracy.)
An Indian 120mm therefore would be both inferior in calibre as well as round quality = Fail.
don't believe me? Google is your maatajee.
That's why the Russians built a 125mm gun, because they still don't have the rounds to penetrate an Abrams, ———————————are u kidding
in 2006 Lebanon was Lebanese fucked merkava4 tanks with just RPG rounds
and some merkava4 were destroyed by KORNET anti tank missile
Let us see where we need tanks at all.
1. Western front (Gujarat + Rajasthan + Punjab) against Pakistan. Pak has Al-Khalid, T-80, and Al-Zarar. the rest are being phased out. Against them, which tank shall perform better? Bhisma or Arjun? – A cursory analysis shall suggest Arjun (If someone thinks otherwise, would appreciate a comparison). Also, Arjun can easily be transported to the western border.
2. Northern front (Kashmir) against Pakistan. I doubt we (or the Pakis) shall be able to use tanks in the mountains. What we would need is ICVs, MBRLs, etc.
3. North and North Eastern Front against China: Similar arguements for the mountains. What we need is high mobility ICVs, MBRLs, etc. Ofcourse, they can be supported by tanks, but tanks won't be our main weapons of choice as they are in Gujarat, Rajasthan and Punjab.
Bottomline, Most of our MBTs are going to be used against Pak and the Arjun is a much better tank in those circumstances.
You dumb fuck!
The Russians developed their 125mm tank gun concept with the T-72s….and the T-72 was built much before the M1 was made…in fact the M1 was made to counter the T72 and replace the M60 tanks…
So how could the original russian 125mm gun be made to defeat an american tank not yet developed?
You write with so much authority but you no nothing!…u make even shit seem sweet.
You still haven't read the history books i advised u earlier have u??
hy i hv heard tht india is purchasing some 400 tanks more off the shelf leaving this 1000
I gave you links from "trustworthy" people, citing the technical details, providing links to blogs by some renowned defense experts… And you "educated" me with bullcrap from some two-penny e-paper!!! Look! I believe Shiv because if will screw up his job if he's caught fabricating truths… 😉 You gotta follow suit…
Also, please find out what the M829E3 round is! Its an APFSDS-T round meant for the Abrams.. I doubt if even the Challenger2 (they say it has the most effective armour yet..) would be able to survive a hit from an APFSDS-T round – it's just too deadly.. The Abrams almost certainly won't.. No statistics are unfortunately available with me here, my gut says that…
So this round is of question obviously…What comes next is the other HESH rounds and KE rounds like the FSAPDS which I mentioned are ineffective against the Kanchan armour…
So what's your point??! No tank is completely indestructible… The Panzers, the Tigers of yesteryears were, even the Abrams are DESTRUCTIBLE… its only a matter of sufficient energy….
Kid! Please take my advice and READ! And present evidence before attempting to refute a point…
BTW, Arjun is ready to mass-produce… dozens of tanks are in fact rusting at Avadi due for collection by the army but whose generals are unwilling as they seem to be more obliged towards some Russian "pay-masters"…You mean to say license-producing the T-90S is going to be cheaper than Arjun??! FYI, they're using the same infrastructure that was set up for the Arjun…
The DRDO is even willing to go ahead with Arjun Mk2 but the generals want the T-90S.. any guesses why that is??!
Also, IMHO, we don't need the T-90S at all since we already have the Arjun.. Just WHY do we need an inferior tank at greater costs?!!!I would say, get Arjun Mk1 and rest Mk2… keep these for 20 years, then get on with the next gen tank under development!!!WHY THE T-90Ss???!
No more malice and nonsense from me about Vincent except for this last piece of insight I got from this friend who read my comment…
He said he had serious doubts if this guy is actually a western propaganda-guy PAID to utter all this here… You have no notion what the corporates would do to make money… they raised the level of a non-deadly swine flu to epidemic proportions….
He obviously won't know much about defense (or be actually interested in it..)His job seems to be to gain some acceptability or create some delusion for someone out there working undercover in some foreign embassy maybe….
See Any Russian weapon, the main design philosophy(atleast during soviet times) was design it to have more force so as to take out the factor of lack of accuracy. be it AK-47 or their TANKS or their ICBM's. Russians always had this problem of not having accuracy, and the only way they knew was to pack as much punch in the shot so as to nullify the lack of accuracy, and thats the reason one would always see the larger bore weapons from Russia. India with its war philosophy of cold start cannot keep counting on Russian weapons, with coldstart one should be able to move quickly, loose less resources in the process of doing so. Arjun would fit into that philosophy, Arjun and not T-90 can withstand an attack from a paki tank. With coldstart we have to take the war into enemy's territory which cannot be performed optimally with a Tank whose design is totally opposite to what we need. T-90 does not have the capability of hitting on the move which Arjun has and which is very important if you want to stick to coldstart. During the lebanon war only few of the merkava tanks from a division of tanks which were sent into Lebanon got hit, and that too after taking multiple hits. And do you know the number of deaths due to hits was less than 10. Total of 24 got hit and only two of them were in a state where in repairing them would not be viable, every other tank was repaired and sent back into battle. And the main reason as to why the tanks got hit was to the fact that Army was unable to follow at the back of tanks in to streets in lebanon, has the Army been following the tanks we would not have seen even the two losses.
so i was mistaken about a version of the Russian gun. does not detract from the main accurate thrust of my posts. a third world military cannot upgrade everything at once, contrary to mumbai wet dreams.
The "Foreign Fetish" Indian Army has already junked Akash for Spyder and Arjun for Tincan-90. This is a done deal. I am sadistically happy that the medium and heavy artillery import is so royally fu**ed up !! I strongly feel CVRDE should continue a strong sales pitch to Columbia, by gifting them a couple of Arjuns free to try it out.
Well Buddha boy!
And here I was thinking that the only friend you have is your well-grooved right hand!
Once again, you have managed to hammer out a terribly long text without much evidence. Let me cut to the chase.
Please provide evidence for the following:
1. Manufacturing a limited edition Arjun is cheaper than assembling a T-90s.
2. The Arjun can survive an sabot round from a Paki or Chinki tank but the T-90s can't, with ERA or not.
3. How your assertion that no tank is indestructible seeks to explain my patient education that Indian 120 mm rounds will be vastly inferior to NATO rounds (hence making it much worse than a Western tank), and will not even have the larger calibre of a Russian tank (with the ability to fire missiles)
4. How the Arjun theoretically can take the fight into Paki territory
5. Why you say the Arjun is ready to be produced when the Army has never signed off on its testing or confirmed its capabilities, except for Hinduvata wet dreaming
6. What makes you think that India is a manufacturer of any decent military equipment and that it is capable of doing next gen design without even knowing how to build good engines or guns first.
Please riddle me this, please do. And no vague conspiracy theory with your chumchars please.
What if DRDO just made stuff for sales abroad…
1. LCA2. Arjun3. Akash4. Trishul5. PAD/AAD(soon to be discarded)
Somehow, Dhruv escaped this fate…
Vincent>> Please provide evidence for the following:
I'll be glad to oblige on behalf of TWB 🙂 Punching holes into the nonsesnse spewed by ignorant pre-pubescent gasbags who think that warfare is all about appearances is an entertaining pastime.
Vincent>> 1. Manufacturing a limited edition Arjun is cheaper than assembling a T-90s.
The Arjun costs $3.4 million a pop, and the T-90 costs $3.5 million (this does not include the new thermal imager or the new active protection systems). While ~$10k might seem trivial to you, let us not forget that most of the money spent on the Arjun will be pumped back into India's fledgling military-industrial complex for further development work, and Indian won't have to dig into her precious foreign exchage reserves for purchasing large numbers of weapons, since it can pay for the Arjun (apart from the few foreign components) in rupees. It is kinda hard to put a price tag on these things.
Vincent>> 2. The Arjun can survive an sabot round from a Paki or Chinki tank but the T-90s can't, with ERA or not.
The Arjun has withstood hits from T-7s2 at point-blank range, and has defeated HESH and FSAPDS rounds (Israeli FSAPDS) too. You think your Paki tank can do better? The T-90 cannot do that. It has weaker armour, and the only redeeming feature is the ERA.
Vincent>> 3. How your assertion that no tank is indestructible seeks to explain my patient education that Indian 120 mm rounds will be vastly inferior to NATO rounds (hence making it much worse than a Western tank), and will not even have the larger calibre of a Russian tank (with the ability to fire missiles)
"Patient education"? More like ill-informed chest-thumping. You made the claim about how NATO guns and rounds were superior. You back it up!
Vincent>> 4. How the Arjun theoretically can take the fight into Paki territory
"Theoretically", a general needs to draw a line on a map, and the Arjun needs to follow it on the ground. Ask a stoopid question…
Vincent>> 5. Why you say the Arjun is ready to be produced when the Army has never signed off on its testing or confirmed its capabilities, except for Hinduvata wet dreaming
Col. Ajai Shukla, on July 28, 2008: "70 tanks have taken less than two years to manufacture. The Arjun’s series production didn’t start in 2000… it only began last year. And the Arjun production line is already very close to producing its installed capacity of 50 tanks a year." If you can't do you research, please shove your comments up your rear orifice where they rightfully belong.
Vincent>> 6. What makes you think that India is a manufacturer of any decent military equipment and that it is capable of doing next gen design without even knowing how to build good engines or guns first.
So design and manufacturing are the same thing, are they? Or do you expect India to become a good developer of military equipment by assembling Russian CKD kits? Seriously, do you come up with this garbage while popping the zits on your face after getting rejected by all the girls in your "first world" western public school? Is that why you bring your tashreef here and berate those trying to ave a patient debate with you? Does doing so make you suddenly feel adequate again? 🙂
omg..vicent actually acknowledged that he got the 'undergunned' issue wrong…
well lo n behold…can't believe the monkey actually had a mea culpa…
if only he wrote something correct in the first place..if only…alas…
Vincent is certainly not a firangi..he is an abcd…..or a normal desi how thinks he's white on the inside..like mj…
no foreigner wud be so ostensibly 'interested' in indian defence material….
he's just having fun on this blog…but his ass is as brown as mine..for sure..
Israel has tested this tank and has confirmed that it is indeed a good tank( GOI wanted a third party confirmation about the capabilities of the tank, as it did not have enough confidence on the testing procedures followed by Indian Army. There were even news about sabotage and DRDO had to install a black box. there is no bigger insult than that)
One suggestion to the DRDO (and probably to the defence ministry as well):
Just open up the Arjun and all other rejects from our armed forces for export. Sure, we shall have a lot more convincing to do to sell these to a foreign country when our own country does not buy them, but let's showcase the Arjuns against the best tanks that those countries have at the moment.
Similarly, let us field the LCA against the JF-17 Thunder in Azerbaijan or Iran (both are potential customers of JF-17 with Azerbaijan already negotiating a contract with China for ~25 planes worth 16-18 million USD each)
I personally think the Chinese are way ahead in tank development vs India.
The PLA has the Type 98 and 99 MBTs. One unique feature: A JD-3 laser eye-blinder system.
Does it signal a quite burial of the Arjun tank? It looks like Arjun will've a symbolic presence in the Indian army; nothing more.
It does. The corrupt Indian Army brass favors the T-90S Bhishma (a downgraded export variant of Russian speck T-90A) over the Arjun. Inferior survivability, leading to tank crew deaths.
You can actually burst a firecracker underneath any current Russian tank and hope to be disappointed if it doesn’t blow off its turret 20 feet in the air… 🙂
Evidence of a Russian MBT's poor survivability. Refer to my statement above. Any guerrilla combatant with a satchel charge would slide one under the hull of a T-90 and detonate it. BOOM! The turret flies off the hull.
The Arjun is better, and if India wants to sell the Arjun abroad, indigeous compnents will need to be installed, such as the diesel engine, optical sights and FCS etc, to permit export.
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