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44 Comments

  1. 1

    MANI's e-world

    Can a more descriptive specification and comparision with similar models be provided.. thanks Shiv.

    Reply
  2. 2

    Rajat

    Is this submachinegun carbine good?

    Reply
  3. 3

    Ram

    A more cleasr picture of the weapon can be seen here : http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg142-e.htm
    The weapon looks very compact and highly effective.

    Reply
  4. 4

    Ram

    The weapon has the shoulder but of MP5, the body behind trigger as that of UZI . On the whole design looks good.

    Reply
  5. 5

    Debbie

    That is so SDRE 😛

    Reply
  6. 6

    Anonymous

    Would be really great if there were a vid of the MSMC firing.

    Reply
  7. 7

    Anonymous

    How is it different from INSAS?? Shiv more update please…

    Reply
  8. 8

    Anonymous

    India could do with a good submachine gun

    Reply
  9. 9

    Mr. Ra

    The Chief seems to be holding the weapon of his childhood dreams.

    Reply
  10. 10

    Raj

    if its developed by drdo, i dont know whether it will work during the war time.

    Reply
  11. 11

    Anonymous

    Russia and the former USSR makes its own small arms and arguably the best ever. The Brits make their own (Enfield etc) pretty well. The French work with the Belgians, the Germans and Austrians support each others' small arms programs and on accasion borrow from the Swiss (the most gun crazy guys in the world) and the Americans buy all the from the Belgians, Germans, Swiss, Italians and Austrians as well as knockoffs of the best assault rifle of all time, the AK-47. The Japanese have the Hanyatti and the Chinese simply rebadge Russian knockoffs. The INSAS and the Vidhwansak aren't bad at all.

    Reply
  12. 12

    Anonymous

    make this an trial case , do an cost audit of the developemnet costs and get the real picture of the way DRDO works…….you will be shocked at the money spent ! .

    Reply
  13. 13

    Anonymous

    @Raj – 12:33 AM
    INSAS worked. Their AK clones worked. The SLR, which is a reverse engineered FN/FAL worked.
    The media in 2010 keeps parroting the same old INSAS defects which were highlighted during the Kargil conflict. Idea is not to diss DRDO or Armed Forces but to help them synergize their energies into building a range infantry weapon systems which are suited for our various needs taking into consideration our diverse topography and operational environments.
    Sure. Why don't you make MP-5 derivates/replicas? What you probably don't know is Germany refused to provide them to our Forces citing Human Rights violations but H&K has a manufacturing hub in Pakistan.
    Get your head out of your A$$ man. Don't just read any goddamn report in "paid media" and start pissing on a web forum. Idiot.

    Reply
  14. 14

    Gautam

    Is that the INSAS carbine? I recall the army was rejecting its induction wanted to issue an RFP for new 5.56mm carbines because DRDO was unable to make it compatible with the standard 5.56×45 caliber ammunition(for commonality with the INSAS rifle) therefore requiring soldiers to carry separate ammo (5.56×30 caliber) just for the carbine.

    Reply
  15. 15

    Anonymous

    thts mp5.. i guess

    Reply
  16. 16

    KVR

    As I keep saying nakkal me aakal nahin lagaana. Laagaya , to aisa hi hoga. Looks like a bastardised Uzi with an MP5 stock. and of course it will be another 20 years before it is deployed and successfully – not SUCCESSFULLY – used. (I remember seeing an INSAS 5.56 around 1984 or 1985 in a Defence expo)

    Reply
  17. 17

    Singh

    Shiv Sir,

    I have a request…..Can u please tell us more about the current status of this gun ??
    I mean Is the Army going to induct those ??
    My hurt boils every time I hear those news reports that says Army has sent new RFP's to global vendors for carbines, Assault rifles…. I mean here we are with our Agni's, Shaurya's, Shivalik's etc but when it comes to basic small arms we have to go to foreign vendors… I mean it is so disheartening….

    At the start of this year, DRDO mentioned in their newsletter that one of their goals is to see the induction of MSMC this year… but so far nothing new has come forward in the media…

    Please Please make some calls & let us know what is going on with this gun…..
    I wish there was some emoticon with folded hands or something like that…. 🙁

    Thanks

    Reply
  18. 18

    Anonymous

    @raj
    tat is just the kind of attitude v all r sick of seeing..there have been delays but drdo has produced many things tat is needed 2 defend ourselves..heck v wont evn have a credible nuclear deterrance widout drdo(read agni , prithvi etc)

    Reply
  19. 19

    Anonymous

    Shiv, do you have any update and pics about F-INSAS?? Pls post. Thanks.

    Reply
  20. 20

    Gautam

    Singh, the thing is DRDO's products often lack the final polish to make them acceptable to modern standards i.e some kinks never get worked out. This is worse with small arms because these are co-developed and manufactured by the Ordinance Factories(a separate entity from DRDO), which have always had a poor reputation for quality control and servicing.

    The ideal solution would probably be to leave such low-level basic stuff to private small arms manufacturers(of which we have many but which are not permitted to manufacture military-grade firearms). A few years ago there was a proposal mooted to replace the entire INSAS/AK-47/FN-FAL family with modern firearms produced by private manufacturers tying up with foreign firms like Heckler and Koch and Kalashnokov. But it was not finalised because the Ordinance factory unions wanted to protect their monopoly.

    Reply
  21. 21

    keshto

    @6:13AM

    Swiss (the most gun crazy guys in the world)

    Its US of A which tops the world, followed by Yemen, and then cometh Switzerland!

    Revisit the facts:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gun_ownership

    Reply
  22. 22

    Anonymous

    Gautam

    There you are again asking Private sector participation with foreign crutches. Let them make a decent gun on their own and compete with DRDO and Foreign Guns.
    If Glock, a curtain rod manufacturer can make state of the handguns, then so should our Pvt Companies. Enough of charity, time for open competition.Break babu-neta-baniya nexus.

    Reply
  23. 23

    Uditt

    http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg142-e.htm
    ————————————
    This is one awesome looking Carbine!

    Reply
  24. 24

    Anonymous

    MP 5 was reviewed by the DRDO and the armed forces

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  25. 25

    Gautam

    My dear anon @ 4.56PM,

    The Ordinance Factories(which produce all of the Armed Forces firearms) have never produced anything on their own. Nearly all their small arms for decades have been licence-built Russian or Western stuff(.303 rifle, Ishapore SLR/FN-FAL, Bren LMG, SVD Dragunov, Zittara/Tavor-2, Nagant revolver, .38 Colt etc.). The sole exception is the INSAS, which was developed indigenously by DRDO and then licensed to the Ordinance Factories.

    Considering DRDO has not been able to develop what the army wants and they are wanting to go for imports anyway, what is the harm in letting the private sector do the same thing the Ordinance Factories have been doing for 60 years? They have to start somewhere. This way the technology will be absorbed by them for future and the Army will get the weapons it wants for a lower price.

    Reply
  26. 26

    Anonymous

    My Dear Gautam,

    When Ordinance Factories get a foreign tech, it is for the nation to gain capability, not to fatten the wallet of some corrupt baniya. When we license manufacture anything with Ordinance Factories it results in savings. In the case of our Pvt Cos., they will simply import the stuff from abroad and paste the logo of their Co. on top of it, just like what Mahendras are doing with BAE Howitzers. In other words they are simply another middlemen in the long line of middlemen in any defense acquisitions. The further we can keep these rubbish companies from something as vital as defense, the better it is for everyone. If they are serious, let them develop their own product and compete with the best in the world. No under table business.

    Reply
  27. 27

    Anonymous

    Army is as corrupt as any other GOI or Private sector institution. Top brass are now making money out of milk and eggs, let alone houses for war widows.
    We have seen to what extent the Army will go to get their share of kickbacks in these highly expensive def acquisitions. Arjun is a classic example where DRDO had to install a black box to stop tampering with it's mechanisms. We really need to question ourselves, with such corrupt Defense forces how secure is our country?They will vilify DRDO, Ordinance Factories etc. as indigenous products do not have any opportunities for kickbacks.

    Reply
  28. 28

    DELTA

    I have been been observing DRDO's products lately. Everything that is produced by DRDO (maybe other than "Leh Berry" juice) has some sort of foreign connection. Either parts/mechanisms of some foreign system is used or help of a foreign agency.

    Now I know a lot of people would say that DRDO is not too bad, I must disagree. DRDO has a very low efficiency, with nearly every project being delayed (we're talking decades here), cost overruns, sub-standard results etc. And I think the basic reason behind this is probably lack of motivation, or maybe just lazy attitude (if you ever get a chance, you must visit a DRDO lab, make the visit insignificant and you will see an appalling site).

    The private sector MUST be allowed to go into extensive defense R&D. If they are allowed now, we will only begin to get results in next 5-8 years. Otherwise, I fear India will continue to spend billions in importing expensive defense equipment, and that saddens me.

    I do not have much experience in these matters, I have just given an amateurs point of view.

    Reply
  29. 29

    Anonymous

    DRDO should not talk of corruption in the forces …..they along with Ordnance factories are selling out the soldiers. they have institutionalised corruption to perfection using the cover of secrecy and national security. They cover everything in the name of National security. Thye are the most corrupt guys in India today.

    Reply
  30. 30

    Gautam

    Anon @ 12.57AM,

    Where do you get off saying such statements like 'Private sector will merely import and stamp' and 'Ordinance factories alone will gain capabilities for the nation while private sector will only fatten baniya wallets'? You realise these posts defy all forms of logic? You can't blame me for accusing people like you of spreading blind propaganda and closing your eyes to the facts after all this.

    BTW curious that your private-sector-hating abusive self doesn't mind if Army imports rifles 1100% produced by foreign 'baniyas' to 'fatten their wallets' but you can't stand the thought of Indian 'banyias' fattening theirs.

    Reply
  31. 31

    Gautam

    Anon @ 12:57AM,

    Your wierd, arbitrary hatred-induced statements boggle the mind, you know. How is technology not gained when private sector licence-builds stuff? Why would they merely put their stamp on it when that would defeat the cost advantage and lose them their customer? Because you say so?

    Why is any profit that goes to private going to some 'baniya'? Because you say so? Why are you so hopelessly biased and vitriolic about that which surrounds you everywhere you go and employs most of the nation's working population?

    If DRDO and HAL are 'serious' why don't THEY develop stuff indepenedently and market them on the international market without public research funds? Make their own revenue from export like Russian defence firms do? Because as you know well their products won't sell compared to the many established players on the world market and they'll lose their investment and go broke.

    Reply
  32. 32

    Gautam

    Also, anons, do you think there are no corrupt people in the Ordinance Factories, the PSUs and the Defence Ministry? Why so self-ignorant about corruption in the government, the MoD, and the PSUs when you read about it on the front page every day? Why try to distract yourself by closing your eyes and spewing random allegations about all private companies being 'corrupt baniyas' just because it said so? Are you a politician? Are you the relative of one? Are you a PSU union employee or the relative of one? Because the biased, half-truth and fabricated tripe your ilk have been spewing on this blog thus far reeks of ulterior motives.

    Reply
  33. 33

    Gautam

    Thus far, you anon private sector-bashers are the ones who have been radiating dishonesty, narrow-mindedness and ulterior motives. Your pointless accusations reveal far more about yourself than the private sector.

    Reply
  34. 34

    Anonymous

    Delta AKA Gautam

    You can change your name, but not your stupidity. It is like your heat signature that gives away your identity.

    Pray tell me, how can an amateur and someone with no experience in "these matters" manage to sneak incognito inside ultra high security defense labs? You think these places are like zoos where you can aimlessly stroll anywhere?
    Are you aware how many years it took to design and build the EF, F16, F15s etc.?
    Lazy attitude in Defense labs? My friend they are not the hard working coolies inside your sweat shop where you sit inside an AC cabin with you big butt n belly 24X7 while calling people who do your work as "lazy". DRDO labs are not the places of coolies but scientists who do not do gadha mazdoori.
    Your exposure to DRDO is limited to Leh Berry that you adulterate with cheap syrup and sell them at inflated prices. Now go and drink some Leh Berry Cranberry juice, they are good for pregnant women.

    Reply
  35. 35

    Anonymous

    Gautam

    What is Mahendra doing with Bofors guns? It's going to manufacture them in their backyard or it's simply going to assemble in their shed a co brand it with BAE?

    Army importing Guns and getting the same stuff from a Baniya will lead to increase in cost.Of course this simple logic will escape a person pretending to be a fool.

    Why should they "License build" stuff? Aren't they going to add a hefty profit to that?Whereas the same "stuff" will be manufactured in Ordinance Factories at almost no profit no loss basis thereby saving precious revenues for the nation in an area which does not generates any wealth.

    Most of the nation's population works in the fields which Baniyas like you help to keep poor by fooling these simple people. 54% of India's wealth comes from services which employs less than 1% of our population. In other words we owe our growth to MNCs which patronize our services firms, not uber corrupt incompetent Indian Pvt Cos which have stymied the economy by not allowing FDIs.

    Reply
  36. 36

    Anonymous

    Gautam

    You may not be aware the amounts of checks that are there in Govt and PSU set ups. You have a Vigilance dept which monitors everything apart from internal and external auditors. Not to mention the ever present role of CBI in tracking corruption.Any expenditure above 10,000 has to be declared annually.
    Whereas in case of Pvt Cos they will help you with ways and means to avoid paying taxes something which they practice when it comes to honestly paying their own taxes.
    1st let these Pvt Cos pay their taxes honestly and religiously and then talk about participation in defense sector.

    Reply
  37. 37

    Gautam

    If vigilance departments and committees could deter corruption what exactly are we reading about every day? Scam, scam and more scam, bribery, black money for lakhs of netas and bureacrats… Don't delude yourself. Technically police is supposed to deter crime as well, but how often does that happen in reality?

    Ordinance factories can sell on no-profit-no-loss basis precisely because they are 100% funded by government grants. You know this perfectly well even as you scream for private sector to manage without grants.

    The anon below my post perfectly illustrates his breed. Making more shit accusations when he perfectly knows the answer and returning to his sheltered existence.

    Private want to start out by 'licence-building' because that's precisely how the defence PSUs started out. As you yourself have argued while defending DRDO elsewhere it is not easy to start from scratch. That said they have done a fair bit of indigenous R & D and may do a lot more if the government gives them research grants for the same as is done abroad.

    Reply
  38. 38

    Gautam

    You anons must find your daily existence a bitter experience considering you are literally surrounded by the private sector you've conditioned yourself to hate every day. Must be sad, wishing for the monopoly days of MTNL, Air India and Maruti to come back and give their stellar service, eh?

    Reply
  39. 39

    Gautam

    How does it feel to type on PCs made by 'baniyas' while sitting on 'baniya' made table and chairs btw? From your degree of language used you must be the type to feel like smashing constantly, eh?

    Reply
  40. 40

    Gautam

    And I just noticed one of you referred to me as 'Delta'? Who is this Delta and why am I supposed to be him? As with the previous ones your post only highlighted your own stupidity and ignorance.

    Reply
  41. 41

    DELTA

    @anon -1740 hrs

    Sir,
    I seem to have offended you. But you really have given no substance in your comment (I like the sweatshop comparison, it made me smile!).

    Development for
    F-15: Started-1965, first flight 1972, inducted 1976 (11 years)
    F-16: Started-early 60's, first flight 1974, induction 1978 (18 years)
    EF: Started-1979, first flight 1994, inducted 2003 (24 years, they have produced an excellent aircraft)

    HAL LCA: Started-1983, first flight 2001, IOC in Dec 2010(27+ years)
    But why compare HAL LCA with such resource rich countries, lets take some others
    PLA AF JF-10: Started 1988, first flight 1998, inducted 2005 (17 years)
    Dassault Mirage 2000: Started-early 70's, first flight 1978, inducted 1982 (12 years)

    I hope these are enough. I suggest you even look at the program cost (HAL beats em all!! Dont forget to add in the pay of all scientists, engineers, technicians, babus etc etc and of course, their AC/cooler/TV/computer bills and whatever else comes to your mind). Of course, these above mentioned fighters have had indigenously built predecessors, but why give the Tejas as an example. ADA was the main body responsible (and of course HAL).

    If you are interested in a discussion, I'll take you on in December, I have my "exams" going on (yes, I do not have an "AC" office).

    And its not very difficult to gain access to DRDO labs, maybe the ones I visited were "purposely" being inept, as in to give a wrong impression to outsiders. Or maybe I am wrong, but those were my points of view (and I apologise for using the word "lazy", it is inappropriate).

    I sincerely suggest you go through the workings, and results of the DRDO, to a layman such as myself the impression you will get wont be good.

    PS-The data I have used for this article is from Wikipedia and FAS. I do not doubt their accuracy simply because if top secret documents can be published on the internet, these are just dates.

    And DELTA ~= Gautam (that sign means "not equal to", incase you did not know)

    Well, looks like pregnant women have got to thank DRDO (for "jointly" developing the juice).

    And one last thing. How old are you? Really, sincere question. I would say 14-18, but I could be way off-mark. It would do you good in life if you just read through your comment (I don't know how much experience you have with it, but at least for whatever is ahead). Its rather "aggressive" if I may call it, and somewhat funny!!

    Regards

    Reply
  42. 42

    DELTA

    @anon -1740 hrs

    Sir,
    I seem to have offended you. But you really have given no substance in your comment (I like the sweatshop comparison, it made me smile!).

    Development for
    F-15: Started-1965, first flight 1972, inducted 1976 (11 years)
    F-16: Started-early 60's, first flight 1974, induction 1978 (18 years)
    EF: Started-1979, first flight 1994, inducted 2003 (24 years, they have produced an excellent aircraft)

    HAL LCA: Started-1983, first flight 2001, IOC in Dec 2010(27+ years)
    But why compare HAL LCA with such resource rich countries, lets take some others
    PLA AF JF-10: Started 1988, first flight 1998, inducted 2005 (17 years)
    Dassault Mirage 2000: Started-early 70's, first flight 1978, inducted 1982 (12 years)

    I hope these are enough. I suggest you even look at the program cost (HAL beats em all!! Dont forget to add in the pay of all scientists, engineers, technicians, babus etc etc and of course, their AC/cooler/TV/computer bills and whatever else comes to your mind). Of course, these above mentioned fighters have had indigenously built predecessors, but why give the Tejas as an example. ADA was the main body responsible (and of course HAL).

    Reply
  43. 43

    DELTA

    contd….

    If you are interested in a discussion, I'll take you on in December, I have my "exams" going on (yes, I do not have an "AC" office).

    And its not very difficult to gain access to DRDO labs, maybe the ones I visited were "purposely" being inept, as in to give a wrong impression to outsiders. Or maybe I am wrong, but those were my points of view (and I apologise for using the word "lazy", it is inappropriate).

    I sincerely suggest you go through the workings, and results of the DRDO, to a layman such as myself the impression you will get wont be good.

    PS-The data I have used for this article is from Wikipedia and FAS. I do not doubt their accuracy simply because if top secret documents can be published on the internet, these are just dates.

    And DELTA ~= Gautam (that sign means "not equal to", incase you did not know)

    Well, looks like pregnant women have got to thank DRDO (for "jointly" developing the juice).

    And one last thing. How old are you? Really, sincere question. I would say 14-18, but I could be way off-mark. It would do you good in life if you just read through your comment (I don't know how much experience you have with it, but at least for whatever is ahead). Its rather "aggressive" if I may call it, and somewhat funny!!

    Regards

    Reply
  44. 44

    Anonymous

    may I know what purpose this big hand guard( or a blown out of proportion trigger guard???) serves?

    Reply

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