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  1. 1


    ha ha,
    Now every aircraft has been eliminated and selected at least once, i think the Ministry of defence should be congratulated for its decade long procurement which might just outlast the planes.

    Well actually it did outlast the production lines of Mirage-2k and the relevance of F-16 block-52+.

  2. 2


    yawn…more anonymous officials 😐

  3. 3


    vipers and fulcrums even within deep modernization programs are still 30 years old airframe designs…if india is looking for top end gear it must forget SH and Gripen and rather choose between Rafale and EF. But buying the french bird would mean m2000H communality savings, plus nuke capability, plus full ToT.

  4. 4

    Mr. Ra

    The exit of F-16 may be giving the back door entry to the F-35.

  5. 5


    An old lady with make up.

    Good Riddance

  6. 6


    Indeed, the Rafale is a real multirole fighter. It can perform terrain following at high speed and very low level and can be used as nuclear vector.

    The production AESA radar will enter service soon whereas it is still in debate for Typhoon. Even Rafale ECM use AESA technology for SPECTRA jammer.

    Rafale already demonstrated in training that it is multi-target capable both in AA and AG almost at the same time thanks to Mica and AASM (guidance+propulsion kit fitted to a bomb)= 3 AA kill and 6 AG kill in 1 minute…

    The mulitrole capacity was in mind from the beginning (unlike Typhoon). And even in AA arena Typhoon failed to prove its so much vanted superiority.

    No use to compare with overweighted F-16…even with big engine F-16 airframe can't compare to modern fighters such as Typhoon and Rafale.

  7. 8

    Prasun K. Sengupta

    The INDIA TODAY article is ridden with factual errors, to say the least. And if one were to go by INDIA TODAY's logic then the Indian Army and IAF should not even consider Eurocopter's AS.350F3 LOH for procurement, since the Pakistan Army has, since the past five years, been buying–with US financial assistance–this very LOH from Eurocopter (visit the Eurocopter website where all photos of the AS.350 LOH are shown in Pakistan Army markings). Furthermore, the steadily increasing quantum of high-tech Chinese military hardware supplies to China did not stop the GoI's approval for Anil Ambani's Reliance Power inking of an US$8.3 billion deal on October 28, 2010 with China's Shanghai Electric Group, a contract which both firms touted as the single largest business contract between Beijing and Delhi. Shanghai Electric will supply 36 coal-fired thermal power generation units to Reliance over three years.
    It appears that oversimplification of issues has become a fashion for the likes of INDIA TODAY and TIMES NOW.

  8. 9


    Prasun: your argument is more flawed than a golf ball, i'm afraid. The Eurocopter choppers that Pakistan operates were purchased at market rates, and were not supplied in aid for "counter-terror activity". There is a fundamental difference here, and you are being either disingenuous or just thick not to recognise that. Also, the Ambani-Shanghai Electric deal is a totally commercial proposition, where the commercial pros far outweigh any political cons. By comparing India's positions on the f-16 to these two things, you're displaying your flagrant ignorance of the subject at hand. I have to agree with you, media houses like India Today and Timesnow do tend to report their subjects in black and white much of the time, but for god's sake man, comparing American weapons in Pakistan with what they buy for top dollar from the French is just an exercise in idiocy. I'm franky disappointed that this is your argument. While I dont agree that the PAF operating the f-16 is a good enough reason to eliminate it from the sweepstakes, i do understand (if not empathise) with the indian government's view.

  9. 10


    The IAF is going to have to find a way to get rid of the F-16 some how. Otherwise there is a good chance that it could be the L1 bid. What will the MOD do then?

  10. 11


    [more flawed than a golf ball]

    What kind of adage-proverb is above? please learn proper english first then lock horns with Prasun Sengupta!

  11. 12

    Jake Lor

    The F-16E/F can't win the MMRCA is because F-16 is being replace by F-35.

  12. 13


    @Livefist, if you follow the same instinct, then EF should also be disqualified, as EADS tried to sell EF to Pakistan. Also, Saudi's have lot of EF for practicing by Pak pilots. That leaves IAF only Rafale and Gripen. Rafale with its reliability problems may be disqualified. Gripen may be the winner but some may feel that Gripen closely resembles our LCA. So IAF will be without fighters for another 5 years.

  13. 14


    July 2011!!!

  14. 15


    You seem to have the wrong impression, Anonymous @12:13AM

    The Rafale is not superior to the Eurofighter in AA.

    In fact, it's current RADAR(RBE2) is much inferior to the ECR-90 on the Eurofighter.

    The AESA upgrade is being planned for both aircraft.

    That said, the Rafale is better in a strike role.

  15. 16

    Manish Kumar

    Pl somebody on behalf of 1 billion Indians file a PIL in the Supreme Court so that it directs the MOD to finalise the aircraft ASAP. It is very agonising to just wait and wait and see the rumour mills working overtime. Due to the dilly dally attitude of our babus and netas our IAF is becoming a subject of mockery just considering the length of time this process of finalisation is taking.
    Just do it !!!!!!!!!!!!

  16. 17


    F-16 is a battle proven fighter, much respected in international community and is ideal last fourth generation fighter which has been sold in numbers to envy any other 4th generation fighter. This platform can very easily do the tasks expected by IAF from MMRCA [thanks to all new gadgets]. However the IAF`s concern about similarity with PAF is valid.

    @Prasun Sen Gupta: Sir, please restart Trishul.

  17. 18


    Get the French to agree to co-dev for markets outside of France and enjoy the roadshow thereafter. That would be a win-win for Indo-French businesses and politics as well.

    – Manne

  18. 19


    Time for another poll ? My choice

    1. Gripen
    2. Rafale
    3. Eurofighter
    4. F18

  19. 20

    mathi man

    I live in Gurgaon and can totally understand why this MMRCA deal is taking so long. People here are more into politics and sitting on files than getting things done and moving on.

    This is the work culture here. yes. The only solution could be moving the MoD procurement office down south somewhere – hyderabad, bangalore.

    It is absolutely shameful to see this tretched so far. Infact in some new indian RFPs manufacturers are not even sending their proposals because they know how long it takes. absolutely disgusting.

    About MMRCA, F-16 was out the moment the new block 52 was offered topak. there is no "news" in that. If EF is in service with saudi ,then we should choose Rafale/gripen only and make sure it does not land in PAF 's training schedule

  20. 21


    why is the Gripen the first choice when all accross the EU it is looked as secondary aircraft UK is intrested in it so that it can play second fiddle to EF and so are other countries select a secondary fighter and fulsh the money down the drain then sit and cry for years to come on the same blog or soem other and yes please put that f-16 through the shredder i do not want the assembly lines for the plane to be open as Pak will get soem upgrades sonner or later

  21. 22


    It's impossible to compare the old and weak F-16 to a state-of-art fighter like the Rafale…

  22. 23


    The Gripen is a Joke!

    It's a weak aircraft with poor political advantage and no offsets! It has obviously no chance to win MMRCA. Forget it!

  23. 24


    Another useless article, F-16IN still pretty advanced with mix of Issy/US avionics and weapons, over 100 types of lethal weapons are integrated on it. Its also far cheaper to operate and maintain than the Rafale and EF. Except for the SH and SV all other contenders are taking baby steps at AESA while both teens have mature AESA. Sh is the lowest cost to operate compared to all other twin engines in the competition. Gripen Ng is the most advanced single engined fighter both in terms of avionics and aerial performance.

    Gripen NG and SH are ultimatly in position to win this due to the commonality they bring to the LCA mk-2 engine. Mig-35 is winner by default if all else fails.

    Rafale and EF wont have a chance once the price bidding starts.

  24. 25

    harish kandpal

    f 16 bloody outdated coldwar relic

  25. 27


    As far as Arnab Goswami & Times Now are concerned they should come with a statutory warning: "liable to raise blood pressure to dangerous levels".
    Headlines Today too to some extent!

  26. 28


    Here is my 2 cent suggetion—Stop wasting billions on these fancy phoren planes, instead, spend those billions on LCA/MCA and kaveri research, involve private partners like TATA, Godrej, Mahindra and Ashok L, things will fruitify in next 10 years.

    For now, buy lots of artillery. MBRA and large number of mizziiles for panda and pure people, including for AD, improve NE infra and basic infra for forces,,with focus on NE,,this should be enough…

  27. 29


    high time..F-16 is obsolete as a platform….we shud never buy it

  28. 30

    Mr. Ra

    F-16 is a battle proven Alexander that conquered beaten Iraq and Serbia/Kosovo. Now it is at the verge of agreement with so-called moderate taliban and withdrawal.

  29. 31



    With your advice, the Indian Air Force would cease to exist.

    The LCA is a joke. Dubbed as indigenous, the two most important things of the airplane are going to be imported(RADAR and Engine).

    Jingoistic maniacs might consider it a great achievement, but the air force has already dismissed it on more than a few occasions.

    India needs to start reverse engineering, at least to learn how things are done.

    The LCA would have been a very competitive fighter, if it had been inducted in the 1990s, as planned. But subsequent delays have made it obsolescent.

    Further, it is because of numerous delays that we had to call in for a tender for 126 fighters.

    In the end, I would like to say that please don't overrate our defense production capabilities. We are far behind many countries, and we would do better if we first recognize that the problem exists, than speaking like naive people and denying that we are inferior.

    PS: The LCA program was launched in 1983. Still, we are struggling with the engines and the RADAR. I don't know how exactly you estimated 10 years for the MCA.

    Note: None of the companies you mentioned have ever made an airplane.

  30. 32



    No matter what Lockheed says about the F-16, it is not going to be a great fighter for us.

    Remember that the F-16 is towards the end of it's service life in it's country of origin.

    It is an old bird, with little upgrades available.

    On the other hand, aircraft like the Eurofighter and Rafale have just entered service, and therefore have a future ahead of them.

    Also, any further development on the F-16/F-18/MiG-35 would have to be funded completely by India.
    On the contrary, developments on the Eurofighter/Rafale may be co-funded by their respective countries, cause they will have it in service too.

    Going for the F-16, would also present other challenges for India.

    1. Just like the C-130Js were stripped off sensitive technologies, would the US do the same to the F-16s if we don't sign the CISMOA till then?

    2. During Exercises with the US, there were rumors about the IAF having a high fratricide rate, if true, buying the same aircraft like our enemy, would further complicate things. IFF works, but if things ever go WVR, you can never be too sure. Case in point, the Korean War had both the MiG-15 and the F-86. Both looked very similar, and there are cases of them mistaking their friends for enemy fighters.

  31. 33



    Include Tata, Ashok L,Godrej and Mahendra for development of LCA? My friend, LCA is a light combat AC, not a truck or almirah.

  32. 34


    F16 has many plus points.

    First of all it's engine is far superior to any other jet in the MMRCA. In fact the venerable F15 has the same engine.

    It has AESA radar, and it has proved it's combat effectiveness in several battles unlike other jets in the competition.

    F16 is also relatiively cheaper than the other twin engined jets.

    If we are looking for cost effectiveness and max ToT, then F16 is the best fighter.

    The GE110 engine tech itself will be a big boon for the AMCA.

  33. 35


    We Indian Hate F16 even more than we hate Pakistan.

  34. 37


    @Ano 12:47 AM – Simple argument from u …You say LCA is a failure,,do u even know how much money has been spent so far,its peanuts compared to just one MMRCA project,,have u even designed a bolt,do u know how hard it is to build a kaveri with all the sanctions and govt apathy,,,today u happily buy MMRCA,,in 10 yrs u will be back with ur bowl asking for next MMRCA spending another 100 billion to phoren…when will u ever be reliant..all these birds are no good for offense,,,they will fall like flies in panda skies due to their solid layered AD,,,so what we need is strong defence first,,then think of offense, we have almost no defence right now…

    @Any 2:16 AM-do u know tata/mahindra are venturing and reasearching on defence ,,,why not prep them encourage them and ask them to participate in future projects,,,simply handing over 12 billions for next 10 yrs and been back to begging bowl doesnt help us…

  35. 38

    harish kandpal

    most of the planes are designed with coldwar in mind only rafale is the exception

  36. 40

    mathi man

    RAFALE :

    Multi role
    Can be developed further for better avionics and weaponsload.
    good Thrust to weight
    Good weapon load capacity
    CAn be used a nucleary delivery vehicle

    Maintenance issues.

    If IAF and MoD buy "lifetime "maintenance the only con is also taken care of.

    The BEST Choice

  37. 41


    Better scrap the MMRCA deal and go for the all powerful Su-34. Letter the the Su-30 clear the skies and then the Su-34s do the ground job………………..let the Sukhois rule the Indian Air.

    Guys its serious…a flight of 2 Su-34s with 2 Su-30s is much more competent than a flight of 4 F-16s or EFs………

    Shiv sir………its worth a debate

  38. 42



    The Fact remains, companies like Tata, Mahindra, etc are not technically capable of making a fighter.

    We have a long way to go, and cancelling current defense procurement in the name of indigenization would only make us more vulnerable.

    Indigenous production is important, but cannot be achieved overnight as you say. Going by your comments, you seem very naive.

    I love my country, and it seems so do you, but you must understand that these fighters are important.

    Plus, regarding these fighters being vulnerable in the face of advanced IADS, keep in mind the Tejas will also be vulnerable.

    Only a 5th generation fighter can successfully penetrate a highly redundant IADS network.

    You seem a Tejas lover, and I know it is a great achievement for our country, which has never made a jet fighter, but I think it is a good technology demonstrator, not a fighter capable enough of being inducted.

    If it is so good, why doesn't the air force induct it in large numbers?

    The fact is that the air force is unhappy with it, that is why the Mk2.

    Also, I am fully aware of the fact that the Tatas want to start manufacturing jet fighters, but keep that in perspective, even the Tatas are trying to partner with foreign firms to first "learn" how things are done.

    Today, a MiG-27 crashed in Rajasthan, how long do you want us to slug in these? Do you want us to wait 10 more years for another indigenous fighter?(Actually it would be 20, DRDO/HAL will say 10 years in the beginning, but delays will take it to 20)

    Or I have a better suggestion, increase the number of MRCAs to 200-300, and ask Tejas to take part in competitive trials.

  39. 43



    Why are you so against "phoren"???

  40. 44



    Try not to get personal you arrogant prick.

  41. 45



    You overestimate the engineering skills of our great nation.

    Tata: Is trying hard to get into it, but even they are trying to partner with foreign firms to first get a hold of things

    Mahindra: They are trying to make trucks and Artillery systems for the Army, cause they know that making a fighter is out of their league.

    Godrej: ??? We are not making cupboards for the Air force. Are We?

    Ashok Leyland: Making trucks for the Army is one thing, making jets is another.

    L&T: Can easily manufacture subsystems. They do have great skills.

    Samtel: Can help with cockpits, but nothing more.

    So, as you can see, none of our great corporates can match up to the production capabilities of foreign companies like Elta, Thales, BAE Systems, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, etc.

    It takes time dude, wait for some time.

  42. 46



    I have designed quite a lot of things, I work in L&T.

    You wanted the Kaveri to be indigenous, but today you cry about sanctions?

    If it were 100% indigenous, sanctions would not have hampered progress.

    So please stop reading whatever DRDO/HAL endorsed document you read, and use the internet, it has better sources and more objective information.

    And I love my country more than you, so I'll put it to you like this:
    What pride are you more concerned about:

    1. Using indigenous equipment and loosing a war. Or

    2. Using "phoren" equipment and winning the war.

    Because whether you like it or not, our indigenous equipment is generally inferior.


  43. 47

    harish kandpal

    gripen ng is the only true versatile fighter rest are designed for coldwar setpieces scenario

  44. 48



    Quote: "do u even know how much money has been spent so far,its peanuts compared to just one MMRCA project"
    Reply: The success is also comparable to peanuts.

    Quote: "when will u ever be reliant"
    Reply: That is why the MoD is pushing for offset clauses. These clauses will enable us to understand modern fighter manufacturing techniques.

    Quote: "all these birds are no good for offense"
    Reply: You are probably the only one to believe that. The F-18, F-16 were used against Saddam Hussein in two gulf wars. The F-16 is the principle strike aircraft used by many including the Israelis. The Israeli Air Force used the F-16s to bomb Iraqi Nuclear facilities deep inside enemy territory under Operation Opera. I could go on.

    Quote: "they will fall like flies in panda skies due to their solid layered AD"
    Reply: They stand a better chance than Tejas.

    Quote: "so what we need is strong defence first,,then think of offense, we have almost no defence right now…"
    Reply: If we had no defense right now, then we'd probably be not having this conversation, cause our nation would have been destroyed or invaded. And please dont discredit our valiant soldiers, sailors and pilots who risk their lives for our safety my making statements like this.

    Please do me a favor before writing your next comment, take a dictionary and use the correct spelling, or type everything that you wanna write in MS word, and do a spell check, cause it takes some time to understand what you intend to say.

  45. 49


    Ask tejas to take part in competitive trials.

    Way to go.

    But unfortunately, HAL will run outta business.

  46. 50


    Can 200 good phoren fighter stop panda from teaching us a leasson, they wont come flying first,,they will first send lot of things flying into our land so what is first needed is good SAM network for defence,and lots of mizziles for offensive or standoff roles,,we cannot expect going into their airspace and come back in 1 piece,,so u take 200 fighters and go to panda,,we come back with 50-60 and would have done some minimal damage to them thats all,,,so whats the point of having all these expensive birds,,why not use the same 10-15B and buy say 1000 SAMS and 1000LR mizziles of all assortments and flavors and point them to panda and say hey we dont mean anything bad , want to be friends,,,but dont poke us else we can reply in kind…in the long run,,lets develop some indegenous stuff,,,with good enough Project management and resource management and if things done honestly,,in 10 yrs we can be in decent shape,,,,in 15-20 yrs i think no one will rely on fighters anyway,, in today's notorious SAM world fighters are only for defensive roles

  47. 51



    Indigenous production is important, but other improvements cannot be 'stayed' in view of this.

    I don't understand your point, cause SAMs dont work as you describe.

    There are ECMs, jamming, etc.

    It is not about just putting a few thousand SAM sites near the border and scaring their fighters away.

    Russia supplied SAM sites have been blinded by Israeli jamming numerous times in the middle east.
    There are Anti-Radiation missiles available, which can easily decimate vital RADAR sites used by SAMs.
    Have you not heard of standoff weapons?

    Quote: "in 15-20 yrs i think no one will rely on fighters anyway,, in today's notorious SAM world fighters are only for defensive roles"

    Have you heard nothing about the Gulf War, do you not know how many SAM sites guarded Baghdad, but even then 8 F-117s infiltrated that network and bombed it.
    Are you unaware of the F-22 Raptor, B-2 Spirit, PAK FA, etc?

    These expensive birds can do both defense and offense, and are much better than SAMs when it comes down to shooting down enemy fighters, cause they can also pursue them.

    Let me put a scenario, the max range of an S-300 is 300KM, and the max range of a Brahmos is 290KM. Now a Su-30MKI can easily fly towards a S-300 site, reach 290 KM and fire it's Brahmos at the target, (let us assume that the S-300 is also launched). The Su-30MKI now turns around to defeat the missile by flying out of the 300KM range, but the S-300 SAM cannot run away. So, maybe after a few minutes the S-300 site would cease to exist.

    You get my point?

    And in your previous post, you very conveniently assumed that our fighters would be sleeping on the ground when the Chinese come, are you unaware of RADAR sites near the border.

    Do you not know that in 1999, when a Pakistan Navy Aircraft infiltrated Indian Air Space, two MiG-21s were sent to intercept it. When the Pak aircraft tried to run away, they fired and destroyed it.
    Google "Atlantique Incident".

    With the advent of cruise missiles and other stand off weapons, SAM sites are not the ultimate form of air defense. They need to be supplemented by aircraft too.

  48. 52


    Tilda, please read


    Maybe you will understand how ineffective SAM sites are in the face of modern jamming techniques, Anti Radiation Missiles, and cruise missiles.

    On the page it is written:
    "Iraqi antiaircraft defenses, including shoulder-launched ground-to-air missiles, were surprisingly ineffective against coalition aircraft and the coalition suffered only 75 aircraft losses in over 100,000 sorties, though only 42 of these were the result of Iraqi action. The other 33 were lost to accidents.[12] In particular, RAF and U.S. Navy aircraft which flew at low altitudes to avoid radar were particularly vulnerable, though this changed when the aircrews were ordered to fly above the AAA"

    Point to be noted:
    Out of 100,000 sorties, which means around 100,000 chances of shooting down Allied aircraft, the Iraqis succeeded in only shooting down 42.

  49. 53


    @Any's ,,,It amuses me that you compare us to Uncle and panda to eyerauq,,we dont have Uncle's logistics/inventory/satellite tech etc,,nor panda is poor/tecno challenged as eyerauq,,now i agree that SAM and mizzile is not the answer,,but if you ask me,for next 10 yrs,,how can i make sure Panda doesnt come knocking on my door,,i would first buy 1000 flavored mizziles and place them everywhere.panda will think 1000 times before playing hankypanky.then buy 1000 SAM's and cover all major cities, then go for birds ,,for after 10-15 yrs,,i will aim to be 70-100% indegenous,,,instead you guys want to go for 200 gr8 birds first,,but this wont cause panda much fear or second thoughts i tell ya.

  50. 54


    Tilda, my point is that the same way US aircraft jammed Iraqi RADAR sites, panda can jam ours.

    On the other hand, fighters like the Eurofighter, Rafale, F-18 are technically superior to anything the panda has today.
    The PAK-FA would most probably outmatch panda's 5th gen fighter.

    Are you saying that RADARs like the APG-79 are inferior to Panda's Su-30MKK's Sokol?
    In addition to that, survivability of US/European air assets is much higher than Russian assets.

    And what about stand off weapons?
    As somebody else pointed out, standoff weapons can be easily used against Panda's defenses.
    And technically superior aircraft can be then relied upon to eliminate any opponents in the air.

    It would be a strategic blunder and a tactical miscalculation if we believe that we can defend our motherland without the Air force.

    Close air support has the power to change the momentum of conflict, and fighters give a flexibility of purpose, multi-role fighters can conduct air defense missions, close air support missions and even deep penetration strikes.

    Also, most SAM sites tend to be stationary, and are therefore generally taken out during the opening hours of conflict by long range cruise missiles, ARMs, etc.

    Why do you believe that aircraft are completely useless against
    Try googling 'anti-radiation missiles', 'Kh-31', 'AGM-88 HARM'

    Also try to read about jamming.
    Wikipedia would probably be a good place to start.

    And remember, India has access to Israeli, US and European high technology items which the Panda can only dream of acquiring.

    Also, attrition would definitely be there, but not to the extent you predicted.

  51. 55



    do u knw tht fighters can even fly below the radar to avoid detection until the last moment, it is knwn as terrain hugging.

    If so, ur sam r of no use to us.

  52. 56


    @Any,,,come on guys now you are switching sides and going reverse,,,now you say we need 200 birds because our SAM sites will be taken out by panda,we dont even have a decent SAM system right now,our major cities are wide open,with exception of some basic defence,,,what sort of an argument is this,,the fact is 200 fancy birds won't do more than slap on wrist of panda,,start thinking in terms on what we need most urgently today to make panda rethink 100 times before it wants to do harm, vs which bird is better,,if we want to safegaurd ourself,we need lots of offensive and defensive tubes first,,guided artillery, LR mbrl etc,,,then birds ,not the other way round, yes we need to strength IAF,,but first things first guys

  53. 57


    Dear Tilda,

    Do your country a great service by not commenting further on this forum.

    Modern Warfare is beyond your understanding.

    What anon@11:03 tried to say is that the best way to fight enemy fighters is to have better allied fighters in the air.

    And that fighters can also perform offensive missions by defeating enemy IADS.

    PS: I have served in the IAF, although I did not have the honor of seeing combat, I have trained for various scenarios, and the way you describe air combat is ludicrous.

  54. 58


    Dear Miitary man,,I rest my case since you know better than me obviously..but i wonder why panda thinks like this,,,they use mizzle and subs as answer to their biggest threats sorrunding thier borders,,just I read some articles on it..they always talk about been capable of shaking up deli in few hours of a conflict start because of their mizzle inventory…we are seem to take a completely different route,,hope we r right!!!

  55. 59


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