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16 Comments

  1. 1

    Anonymous

    Nur Kha is one of the rare Pakistani Armed forces officer to openly acknowledge the fraud that ,'defense of Pakistan day'; celebrated with much fervor in Pakistan;actually is.

    Reply
  2. 2

    Pratik Das

    More Aman ki Asha like nonsense. India and Indians are expected to be magnanimous on account of being the larger country, the parent country, or some such rubbish while they're simultaneously expected to absorb one act of terrorism after another.

    Not for me, thanks.

    Reply
  3. 3

    Mihir

    Pratik Das,

    There is a difference between what you call "Aman ki Asha nonsense" and respect for a professional warrior, even if he was an enemy.

    Jagan's piece is obviously a case of the latter.

    It has got nothing to do with absorbing terrorism, or being magnanimous because we are the bigger country. I don't how you got all that from a biographical column on Air Marshal Nur Khan.

    Reply
  4. 4

    Anonymous

    me too pratik !!! had enough of these pakis!!!

    Reply
  5. 5

    Anonymous

    Bloody Indian appreciating an enemy

    Reply
  6. 6

    Pratik Das

    Mihir, let me know when respect for a professional warrior is reciprocated.

    The last I heard, dead bodies of our warriors were returned mutilated: "Indians were angered by media reports of the death of pilot Ajay Ahuja, especially after Indian authorities reported that Ahuja had been murdered and his body mutilated by Pakistani troops."

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil_War

    A stark difference in behaviours. I'm not suggesting an eye for an eye here. Nevertheless, there's no need to go out of our way in singing paeans for the enemy either.

    Wonder why you didn't get any of that.

    Reply
  7. 7

    Mihir

    Umm… one respects a competent and professional warrior because he lives up to a certain ideal, embodies a warrior spirit that often transcends national boundaries, and most important of all, there is much knowledge to be gained by such an exercise. A Basil Liddell Hart respects and befriends people like Heinz Guderian and Erich von Manstein because of their sheer mastery in directing and prosecuting a professional military campaign, irregardless the atrocities of the Nazi rulers of Germany. In discussing their theories and experiences, and finding common ground on many of the technical issues involving mechanised warfare, they formed a bond of friendship independent the politics that led them down their respective paths.

    Did you notice that many of the people who seem to have partaken in this "Aman ki Asha like nonsense" are former fighter pilots who fought for their country, like ACM Idris Latif? What will you do next, question their patriotism as well? Allege that they too are glossing over the antics of the Pakistanis while being pally with them? Or will you understand that recognition of an enemy warrior's strengths has got little to do with reciprocity, and very little do do with the atrocities that Pakistani soldiers visited upon captured Indian soldiers?

    And since you desire reciprocity, here is one example.

    Anyway, I'm still hoping you would show me how a writing a short biography of a Pakistani officer equates to expecting Indians as a whole to be magnanimous to the Pakistanis while absorbing their acts of terror.

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  8. 8

    Pratik Das

    The "short biography of a Pakistani officer", Air Marshal Nur Khan in this case, is hardly routine affair on Livefist! If he was chosen on account of being an exceptional warrior then would he be the only one in all of Pakistan of such merit? Wouldn't a long line of biographies of the meritorious in Pakistan's air force, navy and army also be in order?

    Or does he deserve special mention for his controversial (in Pakistan) suggestion well after the event that Pakistan Army instigated the 1965 conflict? Lot of good that achieved then or since. The enemy remained the enemy. No surprises there.

    If, on the other hand, a biography of an exceptional Pakistani warrior is in order simply because he was Pakistani (the opposition/enemy/whatever) and he was exceptional then, frankly, I'm not sure what "knowledge to be gained" there is now that he has passed away. Did he actually communicate with the Indian armed forces during his tenure or after to improve bilateral relations between the two nations in any significant manner? If not, how is/was the mutual respect between him and his Indian counterparts, albeit genuine, of any relevance? It is understood that the armed forces on either side of the border at Wagah have cordial relations. So what?

    If Air Marshal Malik (Late) Nur Khan was one of the best PAF had then surely every PAF pilot was not as good as him and his capabilities provide no measure of PAF, especially PAF today.

    Your example of reciprocity isn't worth much considering that the scoundrel like behaviour of Pakistan Army and ISI continues unabated. It is amusing that an apology from an individual for an old conflict has any relevance when new threats are in design by an army and intelligence agency all along. Great for TV specials and Aman ki Asha articles but not much else.

    The Kargil war was a wonderful response soon by Pakistan after the Lahore Declaration. Aman ki Asha indeed.

    If any member of the Indian armed forces is beyond reproach simply on account of having fought, even valiantly perhaps, then why don't we let them run the country? Why isn't India run by veterans? Why don't these veterans, who know best, organise a coup to end the misery of all Indians suffering the genuine or imagined ineptitude of our civil service and government?

    Reply
  9. 9

    Mihir

    Okay, let’s take these one by one…

    The "short biography of a Pakistani officer", Air Marshal Nur Khan in this case, is hardly routine affair on Livefist! If he was chosen on account of being an exceptional warrior then would he be the only one in all of Pakistan of such merit? Wouldn't a long line of biographies of the meritorious in Pakistan's air force, navy and army also be in order?

    That’s not a bad idea. Why don’t you write to Shiv and make the suggestion? He asked Jagan to write on Air Marshal Nur Khan alone, and he (Jagan) did. That’s the end of that. If you want to make the argument that this piece shouldn’t have been written because there are other Pakistani officers deserving of the same, I encourage you to take it up with Shiv.

    Or does he deserve special mention for his controversial (in Pakistan) suggestion well after the event that Pakistan Army instigated the 1965 conflict? Lot of good that achieved then or since. The enemy remained the enemy. No surprises there.

    Who’s denying that Pakistan is still an enemy? And what is your point? How is all that relevant to a simple column about Nur Khan’s early life?

    I'm not sure what "knowledge to be gained" there is now that he has passed away.

    “I’m not sure what knowledge is to be gained” ? “I’m sure there is no knowledge to be gained”.

    Did he actually communicate with the Indian armed forces during his tenure or after to improve bilateral relations between the two nations in any significant manner?

    Again, what’s your point? Did Guderian or Manstein communicate with the Allied or Russian armed forces to “improve bilateral relations… in any significant manner”? No. But there are still studied in detail, and their skills are duly acknowledged.

    If not, how is/was the mutual respect between him and his Indian counterparts, albeit genuine, of any relevance?

    It was relevant enough for a post on LiveFist 🙂
    Again, I don’t see your point.

    If Air Marshal Malik (Late) Nur Khan was one of the best PAF had then surely every PAF pilot was not as good as him and his capabilities provide no measure of PAF, especially PAF today.

    Strawman. Nobody claimed that his capabilities provide any measure of the PAF.

    Your example of reciprocity isn't worth much considering that the scoundrel like behaviour of Pakistan Army and ISI continues unabated.

    Nice bait and switch there 🙂

    You asked for an example of reciprocity, of a Pakistani showing due regard and respect for an Indian soldier, and I gave you one. Now you say it is not worth considering by bringing something irrelevant about the ISI into the picture.

    Thanks, but no thanks. I’m not biting.

    The Kargil war was a wonderful response soon by Pakistan after the Lahore Declaration. Aman ki Asha indeed.

    Yeah, let us all vilify every Pakistani, and pretend that there is nothing to discuss about a highly skilled pilot and leader, simply because he is Pakistani. I’m sure that will prevent future Kargils from happening.

    If any member of the Indian armed forces is beyond reproach simply on account of having fought, even valiantly perhaps, then why don't we let them run the country?

    Gigantic strawman. Nobody is arguing that they should run the country. What I am suggesting is that self-styled internet warriors think twice before casting aspersions on people who have laid their lives on the line fighting for this country, and think a million times before questioning their patriotism. I think it is a fair suggestion.

    BTW, I’m still waiting for you to show me how this piece specifically makes a case for Indians as a whole to be magnanimous to the Pakistanis while absorbing their acts of terror.

    Reply
  10. 10

    Jagan

    Pratik,

    I am not much into this political and strategic stuff but as a late comer to this discussion, Let me give you some answers (as the author of the above piece) about some points you raised in the last post

    ">>he was chosen on account of being an exceptional warrior then would he be the only one in all of Pakistan of such merit? "

    No there are others in the PAF – Haider Raza, Asghar Khan – maybe more

    ">>Wouldn't a long line of biographies of the meritorious in Pakistan's air force, navy and army also be in order?"

    Yes it would be, and there will be similar articles on the above mentioned names as well. .. at some point this write up (and the new ones) will be found in the Bharat-Rakshak.com website – IAF > History > WW2

    ">>does he deserve special mention for his controversial (in Pakistan) suggestion well after the event that Pakistan Army instigated the 1965 conflict?"

    ..and that too…

    Reg the speculation about the motivations and reasons behind this piece, everyone will draw conclusions on what they will believe. .. take it for what it is. and Like it or dislike – as per your choice. Its a free world after all, and I totally get it.

    Reply
  11. 11

    Pratik Das

    Mihir, I'm not going to go into a detailed point by point response to your reply. I'm amused you seem to have taken it upon yourself to put me in place, so to speak, when the piece was written by Jagan and the blog belongs to Shiv.

    You can call anything a bait and switch as you deem fit. I have a problem with honouring people from an institution that is well below unethical and continues to terrorise. I don't care if 0.1% of them are exemplary warriors. You might have no trouble in treating each person on a case by case basis. I said my very first this wasn't for me, and I've explained my point of view. Take it or leave it.

    Jagan, you're right. It is a free world. You'll note that I haven't once disparaged the quality of your writing and I was fairly certain you were of BR fame from the effort you've taken in putting this piece together which is commensurate with the quality of material in BR. It is the subject that I've written about. It is only my opinion, as I've stated before, that your considerable effort and the opportunity to broadcast your efforts through this blog would've been better spent on the Indians involved in the 1965 war.

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  12. 12

    Pratik Das

    And Mihir, you can keep waiting for anything and everything. I have explained that I see the Pakistani Armed Forces as one entity that should be held accountable for their actions.

    We can honour the heroes amongst them when the treachery ceases.

    Reply
  13. 13

    Mihir

    I'm amused you seem to have taken it upon yourself to put me in place

    Who, me? Why would I want to put you in place, kind sir? I objected to your silly outburst against the author and retired armed forces personnel.

    You can call anything a bait and switch as you deem fit.

    Thank you. I shall also call it bait-and-switch if it indeed is that.

    I said my very first this wasn't for me, and I've explained my point of view. Take it or leave it.

    You expect me to believe that? Your comments were nowhere near as benign as would merely arise from you explaining your "point of view" 🙂

    Reply
  14. 14

    Sam

    I cant believe this. Why are we eulogising somebody who fought for the Terrorist State of porkistan.

    Maybe it is a well written article but it should be on a paki defence forum. Not an indian one.

    Also for the author who seems to eulogise Asghar khan – you should try reading his book "The Second Round" on the 1965 war and see if you do not die from pure laughter. Basically the story is that in 1965the great muslims thrashed cowardly hindu pilots but of course the politicians lost the war for Pakistan.

    Essentially these pakis military personnel are uncouth liars, bigots and filthy terrorists and that is the only respect they deserve.

    Reply
  15. 15

    Arun

    The problem is a lot of Indians – like Jagan, Mihir etc see war as some sort of game where both sides play a hard match and tehn relax after the game with drinks, and backslapping in plenty. That certainly is the attitude seen in many officers of the prepartition era. Point out that eulogies of the Pakistani side, especially when they are butchering Indians day in and night out, are unseemly and you'll be called an internet warrior as Mihir called Pratik. All said and done, our NRI gentlemen can afford to show a lot of grace for "Warriors" from the Pakistani side, we in India are heartily fed up of Pakistan and all that it represents.

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  16. 16

    Anonymous

    Great article ! His interviews on u tube are refreshing as perhaps he is the only Pakistani who spoke the truth about the actual issues in pak with so much candour and so fear lessly. To all the critics of this article – please go see his interviews first, you might end up respecting him for what he stood for – honest professional , non political leader who for a change did not hate India.

    Reply

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