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19 Comments

  1. 1

    Rajinder Verma

    In the existing Air to Air missile regime, I seriously doubt whether a Aircraft can escape once locked +be. It can be quite difficult to predict the outcome …..

    Reply
  2. 2

    Aritra Gupta

    So the Sukhoi(s) with better and bigger radar, supported by Netra AEWACS and Phalcon AWACS had to flow patterns repeatedly to remain Kinematically safe from sustained F-16 lock ons, whereas they failed to secure any target solution. Is this a tacit acceptance of the fact that Pak Air Force has better BVR capabilities with better Radars and early warning system? I mean one could understand if the Sukhois didn’t fire a single missile (stringent ROE), but to admit that it was our premier jets which had to keep avoiding been locked on while failing to achieve sustained lock ons on enemy F-16s the whole time is disappointing.
    Secondly, you have mentioned that that the Mirage IIIs fired H-4 SOWs. Wikipedia (which I understand might not be a reliable source) mentions that they are precision guided stand-off glide bombs with max operational range of 120kms. Which means two things. 1. Pakistan could have fired it comfortably from within their airspace (as the targets were very close to the LOC). 2. high chance of hitting the target (although it’s accuracy is not known). So my questions are: 1. if their targets were mere 3 to 5 kms inside our territory why breach the LOC? Was it to send a message? How could precision guided bombs miss all their targets (a question very similar to what they have raised about our air strike, and especially poignant in light of the statement that they deployed those bombs specifically to cause damage, which means the bombs have not been jettisoned)?
    Thirdly, both the IAF and PAF have confirmed about the deployment of JF-17s (Pak has denied the usage of F-16). What role did they play in this aerial battle?
    Lastly, I have to admit that I am one of those innumerable keyboard think tanks with very limited knowledge and understanding, but nonetheless very inquisitive and exited about these matters. So please pardon me if my understanding of the issue and the questions I have raised come off as naive.

    Reply
  3. 3

    parijat punj

    “It is also likely that rules of engagement had been modified, though the IAF has refused to confirm or deny.”
    what does this mean?
    The article is great though a bit technical for civilians!

    Reply
  4. 4

    S

    there are contradictory reports so far on F-16 being shot down…assuming PAF will never come out clean on this..will we ever be able to know the exact truth…International Media is ridiculing IAF..

    Reply
  5. 5

    Muhammad shahrukh

    Whatever the Indian let buy the 100 rafeel jet but they can’t do anything of Pakistan India don’t know about our strength of Pakistan what we are we are waiting for this day I means say war war war Pakistan zindabad

    Reply
  6. 6

    Rajinder Verma

    Is the author suggesting that a fair mix of 2*SU30MKIs, 4*Mirage 2000 and 6*MiG Bison could have staved off a determined packet of 24*F16, JF17s etc…… The IAF is good but to suggest that they are not vulnerable is over stating it. The IAF case for a major upgrade to Tejas MK 2 and quicker induction of AWACs just got more reasonable. India no doubt is loosing the combat edge and it is directly proportional to the level of Pakistan festered terrorism in J&K. The Pakistanis are snug under the impression that the Indian Armed Forces are simply not overwhelming enough to deter their determined push in to Kashmir. The Government must remedy this adverse situation soonest !!!

    Reply
  7. 7

    Maz

    As a defense enthusiast – reading this sequence of events makes me question the IAF’s response to the PAF . The fact that despite the IAF possessing a significant arsenal of BVR weapons and aircraft with radars with range to penetrate deep into enemy airspace there was broad passivity in their reaction is disturbing. The IAF Air Marshall flippantly informed us that Mig 21’s are there to be “used”. I wonder why then his force is conserving BVR missiles ?

    ANY AMRAAM fired into Indian airspace should have immediately been retaliated with a barrage of BVR missiles into POK airspace essentially making it unsafe for PAF to operate in. Yet we see that the PAF has been using POK Airspace to launch stand-off munitions into J&K giving the tactical advantage to the PAF to encroach and contest Indian Air dominance in J&K.

    The sukhois have ALL the weaponry and technology required to neutralize the F16 and its AMRAAMS while delivering a far more lethal response. We KNOW that IAF pilots are trained to exacting standards. The ONLY question to ask then is WHY did the IAF not respond in kind ?

    It is clear beyond doubt that the IAF brass owes the nation an explanation for its insufficient response to being targeted and attacked INSIDE Indian Air Space by an inferior air force. 25 aircraft is less than 2 squadrons and the IAF has enough air assets for both numerical and technological air superiority over the PAF. Yet the engagement’s details reveal a unsatisfactory sequence of events.

    Reply
  8. 8

    Shankar

    My thoughts on what might have happened going by what you posted here

    Why Abhinandan used the R-73 if at all he did it?
    1. He was within Visual Range.
    2. An IR missile WVR has the best kill probability
    3. He fired when he was very close and the F-16 was in the no escape zone of the missile
    4. While trying evasive manoeuvre immediately after his aircraft was hit by debris from the F-16
    5. He was working in an environment which was filled with ECM/ECCM.
    6. No way he could have been hit by an AMRAAM as he was very close to the F-16.
    7.Even if the PAF says no missiles were fired by Abhi , chances are one of their AMRAAM shot down their own F-16 when Abhi manoeuvred close to the F-16 and the AMRAAM got a lock on the F-16.
    Regarding the Su-30 mki not being shot down
    ——————————————————————————-
    The Su-30 MKI may have been using DRFM jammers to jam the F-16 radar

    The fact that the PAF F-16 were launching AMRAAM from max range decreases the chance of a kill at the end game of the missile where the rocket motor will be out of fuel and they will be flying blind till their own active radar gets turned on.
    That could explain the Mi-17 going down as it cannot outmanoeuvre the AMRAAM and fly out of the missile kill envelope while the Su-30 can.
    —————————————————————————————————-

    Reply
  9. 9

    nagesh

    Why su30. Did not manage radar lock on f16 with its own bvr

    Reply
  10. 10

    Harpreet

    The likely reason why Su 30 did not fire is because PAF had the advantage of “Announcing hostilities” and being the first to take shots. Once you have been fired upon you would be engaged in taking evasive measures until the threat has subsided and cannot maintain a lock on the enemy to guide your own BVR missiles. Remember the enemy missile will reach you first.
    Also as pre IAF ” Jammer can work only when the radar does not operate.”
    Source- http://164.100.47.193/lsscommittee/Public%20Accounts/16_Public_Accounts_114.pdf

    Reply
    1. 10.1

      Shankar

      Hi Harpreet,

      the fact is the Su-30 were operating in conjunction with the Nethra and Phalcon AWACS.That frees them to use the jammers on the PAK f-16 . since they are being attacked it is reasonable to expect them to return fire with IR and Radar guided missiles which can get their guidance from the awacs.

      Reply
  11. 11

    Ajay Singh

    “None of the other (Indian) jets launched weapons — IAF sources suggest this was owing to a lack of target solutions at beyond visual range…” Surely it is a cause of worry that the Su30s could not lock on to the F16s and other PAF aircraft, whereas the latter did achieve locks on to the Su30s, albeit for brief periods not sufficient to launch weapons?

    Reply
  12. 12

    Ajay Singh

    And … why only 2 CAPS of 4 a/c total over Kashmir, and just 6 MiG21s scrambled to intercept 24-strong PAF force approaching? Sounds very uneven odds, especially given the numerical superiority of the IAF over PAF?

    Reply
  13. 13

    nagesh

    But f16 locked su30 4-5 times, that means hostility started, then why su30 cant fire missile at f16..anyway they crossed loc sonobody can blame India.. I think IAF missed opportunity or more alarmingly their radars could not lock f16..which is serious weakness….

    Reply
  14. 14

    Shrirang thakur

    It’s baffling to understand, IAF jets were constantly getting locked by PAF fighters. How couldn’t powerful Radars of Sukhoi or Mirage lock of PAKI fighters. BARS & RDY are known to be quite powerful Radars than PAKI jets radar

    Reply
  15. 15

    Lalu

    Most likely Su 30 did not engage as its BVR capability may not be as good as F 16s given the latter had access to tried and tested AIM 120C BVR missiles.

    Reply
  16. 16

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  17. 17

    San Man

    Hmm…looks like the F16s had locked on IAF…so their BVR radars were more better. That needs to change for the better in Indias favor. We need to be able to have longer BVR radar locks and missiles than the Pakis.

    Reply
  18. 18

    Hurt Indian

    With all due respect to IAF it has been exposed badly by this encounter. They could not fire a single BVR missile. All kinds of excuses are given bottom line is they could not protect countries borders in blatant day attack. What happened great radar capabilities of SU 30 MKI? Clearly lack of leadership and foresight at IAF, defence ministry has caused this situation.

    Clearly we don’t have any offensive capabilities vs Pakistan if SU 30 MKI is useless against F16.

    Reply

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