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50 Comments on "COLUMN: M-MRCA, A Difficult Choice For The IAF"

Technofun
Guest
6 years 9 days ago

Nice one, I agree with Commodore that Lockheed Martin will not keep F-16 line open for 40 years. Already they are spending lot of effort in next generation F-35 program. Also it is of last generation, India should look for advance fighter to fill its gap.

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 9 days ago

"… I would always pitch for a light, easily manoeuvrable, agile and relatively inexpensive fighter that delivers every time, generates high sortie rates and is easy to maintain and train on a day to day peace time schedule."

Sounds a lot like Gripen to me 😉

Subho
Guest
6 years 9 days ago

Quite insightful and unbiased opinion that says much without speaking a lot. I agree with his final assessment that the choice of the MRCA should focus on procuring a light , maneuverable aircraft that has quick turn – around ( read hot- refueling) capabilities at an affordable price. It translates to only one choice – GRIPEN NG and nothing else !

Bring it on ….

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 9 days ago

Very nice and unbiased opinion.

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 9 days ago

Good article. Read in conjunction with another article on dynamics of US defense industry and geopolitics, Gripen NG is the only one that fits the bill with a capability to even have a Naval Gripen in very near future. The only deal that would make this sweet would be complete software TOT along with a line to produce the same in India for all exports in the world.

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 9 days ago

"… I would always pitch for a light, easily manoeuvrable, agile and relatively inexpensive fighter that delivers every time, generates high sortie rates and is easy to maintain and train on a day to day peace time schedule."

This actually is exactly what PAF chief said and it is the reason they are getting the JF-17 at $12 million a plane. We need the LCA and in large numbers. Forget all this foreign stuff.

RAT
Guest
RAT
6 years 8 days ago
OK that means there are only 2 choices and they are definetly not F-16 or the Gripen 1> F-16 no full technology transfer also cannot trust Americans remember what they did with Iran also they always sell stuff that they know is not equivalent to what their forces have and that too with sanctions. 2> Gripen is using GE engine again American its like a beggers plane avonics from here electric suite from there radar from some where power plant Am where going no where also it will kill Tejas project the choices are 1> Eurofighter it will take us… Read more »
Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 8 days ago

RAT….
Do you know what engine the LCA uses??????

The ES05 Raven is accually a swedish RADAR (software, signal processor, transmitter, receiver, avionic integration etc……the disc is from Selex)

Hmmm….stupid "experts"…..

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 8 days ago

Whoever wins this will get morethan 126….i gurantee you that. Just look at the numbers for Su-30, Jags, etc….Question is which one will leave room for the LCA to survive? This is where i agree with the RAT. There are also rumers that the budget is likely to double as the prices have increased over the last few years. India is about to get screwed.

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 8 days ago

Hmmm… that's rather a difficult choice for the Government. The IAF will likely downselect 4 ac to let a maximum choice to the Govt, which will have to make the best choice in terms of ToTs with a (as much as possible) neutral political solution. In this perspective the US should be ranked last. Don't you think? It's a shame that the Commodore (an IDSA member, apparently) doesn't give more explaination on that point. That would have been much more interesting.

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 8 days ago

FMS itself is a scandal. On what basis is a "country" selected for a direct purchase? At least you can weigh relative technical merits among candidate fighters but among countries what is the basis for preference ????

Subho
Guest
6 years 8 days ago
Yeah we have a lot of LCA backers on this forum for sure. They usually chose to post anonymously – so many of them might actually be DRDO insiders trying to influence the course of discussions on this forum because their jobs depend on it. Well for one the MoD has finally taken note and is planning to restructure the institution at long last. Focusing on the argument that the LCA somehow is swadeshi beats me ! As someone else has pointed out already on this thread – the LCA if it ever ends up serving in the IAF will… Read more »
RAT
Guest
RAT
6 years 8 days ago

Anonymous said…
(Hmmm….stupid "experts"….. )

EXPERT GIVE ME A BREAK.
YES LCA is using a American engine and the American Govt has stopped any of it company from providing any tech support for LCA and yes Gripen NG is still under development do not say it is done with development then why did it not come to India ha just a question expert?

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 8 days ago

At a base price of $48M (possibly less after negotiation), the Rafael seems like a good deal… The French are more reliable than Americans. And the Swedes, how can we forgive their non-cooperation during the Bofors scandal?

Sardar Ram Singh
Guest
Sardar Ram Singh
6 years 8 days ago
Looks like it going to be the F16 that is going to be accepted. I think the Indian govt lost out when the French also wanted to transfer their entire production line for Mirage but now if the US would do the same then India should grab the oportunity because there are a lot of third world nations like Pakistan,Indonesia,Afghanistan, who would like to buy them and then India can develop good fighter aircraft like the Tejas Mark ll for themselves and sell the F16 to them. Indian exports of weapons will soar and Indian & US friendship will reach… Read more »
maratha Mind
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maratha Mind
6 years 8 days ago

Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!
:-[ Yawnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 8 days ago

@ RAT

If pure developement is a concern, then –

1.Euro is still not developed. Rememember it does not have an AESA radar. Plus its made in Tranches. So which one do you think is right for IAF?

2. Rafale is also not developed because it would need to be tested again with new missiles and its required software(Russian amramski to k 172 and Astra etc). It would also spend considerable time being developed with Indian and Izraeli avionics.

So are these two developed then?

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 8 days ago
RAT… What do you mean?As far as I understand the SAAB Gripen has been sold to 5 (6) different customers. Both Nato and non Nato members. Not in any case has there been any problems with tech. support. As for the latest Gripen model, it's still a demo and it just cleared some of the toughest tests on the MMRCA list of tasks (same tasks that many of the other contestants failed): And yes…..IN INDIA…(please read the first article here at livefist) or this: Gripen Demo REPORTEDLY clears Leh trials beautifully … doing ALL routines required.Gripen Demo REPORTEDLY clears heat… Read more »
Abhiman
Guest
Abhiman
6 years 8 days ago
I disagree with some of the views of Sqn ldr Phadke. If the purpose of the MRCA is just to acquire technology — most notably, the AESA radar technology — then only that technology can be purchased separately off the shelf. So for example, only AESA radar sets can be purchased for Tejas Mk.2. Why purchase entire fighter jets, that have the radar pre-installed ? Are the obscene costs justified, when the separate AESA radar sets can be purchased off-the-shelf ? Secondly, the author is, I'm afraid mistaken that F-16 is a "light" fighter simply because it is single engined.… Read more »
joydeep ghosh
Guest
6 years 8 days ago
@ Shiv Aroor & Air Cmde Phadke I disagree with what Air Cmde Phadke has said about Su-30 with respect to MMRCA. Air Cmde Phadke should remember that using the Su-30 for medium to low intensity ops is like 'using a sword to cut a cake'. This is nothing but wasting a potent aircraft for minscle job. Also it should have been in his notice that the air launched version of Brahmos will be ready by 2012. As per reports 40 Su-30 will be jury rigged to carry 2/3 air launched Brahmos. So if Su-30 is such a potent aircraft,… Read more »
Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 8 days ago

Subho:

I guess if you were handed the latest Ferrari F1 engine and four tyres from Bridgestone, then you will be able to make a competitive F1 car eh?

How about Maruti? Maruti will surely be able to make a F1 car then right away. Tata?

Can you list out the activities that the ADA and HAL conducted to get the LCA to where it is today? Can you then give your opinion on how easy or difficult these things were?

Its okay to be ignorant, but why invite ridicule by parading it in public?

Daveil
Guest
6 years 8 days ago

What is amusing is why are there so many anonymous erudite gentlemen in the country? What if we invited all of them to party hosted by Shiv? Will they come wearing masks?

Mayuresh Gaikwad
Guest
6 years 8 days ago

The guy is out and out batting for the F-16!

I wonder why the Mig29 (and by extension, the Mig 35 airframe) is not a proven aircraft like the F-16 and F-18

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 8 days ago
The write up by an IAF fighter pilot is deficient in many areas. The main problem is that he uses the price to cull main contenders, after making a major assumption based on his judgement that all jets are essentially equal in performance.Then he discusses the MIG-35 and the F/16 in detail to reject them both – finding happiness in the Swedish Gripen.I do not think the Eurofighter which is undoubtedly ranked high by simulation experts, works for the Indian IAF. It is too expensive and of the borrowed argument that we would get Russian style TOT is prematurely hypothetical.Gripen… Read more »
Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 8 days ago

Don"t want to sound rude……………………..

but, did i miss something ?????…….nothing really new in the article………

and if i may add my 2 bits……….somewhere i am sure the IAF/Navy would take into account the problems they faced with US sanctions and be wary……….they may buy support equipment/aircraft like the C130J or C17 (or maybe the Boeing P8I)……but to depend for a major part of their new attack/frontline fleet on the US ???????????

and the no's are closer to 126+63 options = 189 plus a few follow on orders like the Jaguars/Su30's……………

Abhiman
Guest
Abhiman
6 years 8 days ago

Anonymous @ 1:39 PM, this Subho fellow is a known Tejas basher. He's done it on other threads also. Just ignore him.

BUT TO BE HONEST I WILL ALWAYS PREFFER A STEALTHIER FAST AGILE AND ADVANCED LCA TO ANY OF THE PRESENT MMRCA CONTENDERS

RAT, I fully agree with the above. Tejas Mk.2 especially is likely to equate the Mirage-2000 and Gripen-NG in specs. So, no need of importing an expensive MRCA.

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 8 days ago
Gripen is simply not an effective fighter jet excepting for short take off, hot refueling – interesting features – but one cannot build a modern IAF with Gripen and look ahead. Its engine is a strategic liability. Aha….who told you that??? So….supercruise, Aesa radar (120 degrees each side), worlds most advanced datalink acknowledged by LM, Boeing, Dassault etc. (since decades), full integration of IrisT, Meteor (and of course the second division missles like sidewinder & amraam), Full integration of almost all offensive ordonance in the west, low RCS, the effective EWS39, HMD, MAV, market leading cockpit interface (evaluated by many… Read more »
Ravi Khanna
Guest
Ravi Khanna
6 years 8 days ago

India Should Go with Eurofighter Typhoon. If They give India Full Transfer of Technology. As india need's Technology Transfer. Also AESA rader with Complete Code's to set according to indian needs. At This point India Should not think of Money. India Needs newer technology for defending. China and pakistan are growing their parnership with Complete TOT. Then Why should India lack. If Eurofighter Typhoon is providing their fighters with Full TOT for some more price then india should go for the deal.

Ravi Khanna
Guest
Ravi Khanna
6 years 8 days ago
I will say INDIA go for Eurofighter Typhoon. Reasons:1) New Partnership.2) Full TOT – India Needs it Badly.3) With Thrust vectoring Engines Offerd to India.4)Service – Low maintanence Record. Which Means not to spend time on refurbisment of Aircraft.5) Great Power & Outstanding Performance.6) New Radar & New Avionics.7) Many Armament Choice.(Missiles & Bombs)8)Range and combat radius is very good.9) State of Art Technology.10) Multirole Fighter.11)Better Upgrades.12)Better Fuel Consumption.13)It has ability to Supercruise without using afterburners.14)Rate of Climb is Superb.15) Service Ceiling is better than any other contender in race with MMRCA.16) External Stations are more.17)Airframe – Best in Class.18)All… Read more »
SUMIT*♠♪☻&дMמ¢
Guest
6 years 8 days ago
we shld strt production of LCA it will satisfy all these needs and can be developed more and more… per year.. while we cannot upgrade mmrca's more effectively… the need is to take more sensible decision LCA production shld within a year.. F-16 also was not that much agile and sophisticated when it was developed.. now it is 1 of the best …. invest 12 billion in research and production… for LCA after all "APNI BANAYI CHEEZ APNI HE HOTI HAI " and we can improve it with Israel and russian help ,JUST Add AESA and it will be a… Read more »
Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 7 days ago

" All of them are reportedly very expensive, with reported prices ranging from Euro 48 million for the Rafale to Euro 88 million for the Eurofighter and US$ 58 million for the Super Hornet. "
Among the super 3s Rafale is the best suited for IAF as Eurofighter is too pricey. Tech transfer should not be a problem with Rafale. SH has no guarantee of complete tech transfer.

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 7 days ago

I am the "anonymous" poster of the post 11.50 and I just want to clearyfy to all of you that the last sentences in that post is a QUOTE from Vishnu. I repeat, the post itself is NOT written by Vishnu.

My intention with the post was simply to highlight some of the posters cheering for their contender based on feelings rather than facts.

Marcus
Guest
Marcus
6 years 7 days ago

Nobody is going to give india TOT. They will only give just enough to assemble the components and maybe something for which they already have a successor to. Look at BRAMOS….still very little TOT…all critical components still made in russia. For those countries to give away true TOT, means they loose their competitive edge overnight. The only way india will get ahead is to invest more into LCA.

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 6 days ago

Commit to purchase minimum 400 ej200 based LCAs and purchase of gripen would not interfere with tejas.

Farangen
Guest
Farangen
6 years 6 days ago
I recommend the FAB and IAF to join hands and select The Gripen Demo platform as their choice. Brazil and South Africa already is co-developing the A-Darter fifth generation infrared homing air-to-air missile (AAM). (Remember South Africa is alredy flying Jas Gripen 39 C/D, so they will integrate it with the Gripen. the SAAB Gripen has already been sold to different customers. Both Nato and non Nato membersWhats more in the deal? LCA Tejas can also use the Gripen Demo engine GE F 414G. Hot refuling capacity. An already state of the art AAM integrated missile to the Gripen system.… Read more »
RAT
Guest
RAT
6 years 6 days ago
@Anonymous said… Gripen Demo REPORTEDLY clears Leh trials beautifully … doing ALL routines required. YOU MEAN IT HAD THE AESA RADAR ON IT WHEN IT CAME HERE? ALL THE PLANES EXCEPT F-16 IS UNDER DEVELOPMENT SO WHY NOT GO WITH A OPTION THAT WILL BE BETTER FOR THE FUTURE OUR GUIES CAN LEARN FROM THE EURO AND GRIPEN IS IN THE SAME WEIGHT CATEGORY OF LCA CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG. LCA IS UNDER DEVELOPMENT AS WELL AND THE REASON I WANT THE GRIPEN NOT SELECTED IS BECAUSE IT WILL NOT COMPLEMENT THE LCA GROWTH BUT WILL KILL THE… Read more »
Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 5 days ago
Whenever Gripen is mentioned we hear of all the manufacturers in the world and Gripen assembling the pieces.No one excepting SA has purchased the Gripen.If having an LCA oriented philosphy of manufacturing i.e. buying elements from multiple nations is not a strategic liability – what is a strategic liability. This is a platform just like the Eurofighter which has not matured and India should invest in something which vaguely resembles the Indian LCA – I am not out of my mind. I want my LCA then.The Eurofighter specifications written by Mr. Khanna are a copy of the MIG-35 at double… Read more »
Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 5 days ago
Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 5 days ago

If Gripen or the F-16 wins the 126 MMRCA contract the LCAs might be limited to just about 139 aircraft. there is an option of another 49 LCAs and 63 MMRCAs if required.with as many as 270 + SU-30MKIs it is higly unlikely that they would buy an expensive heavy fighter especially when they will have 5th gen jets in less than a decade which would also be twin engined.

RAT
Guest
RAT
6 years 5 days ago
@Anonymous said… Yes it had!(since october) GOOD then it will be good bye LCA as 200 or so Gripen will be purchased and LCA will be not be inducted above 50 same engine manufacturer for both the planes Schema contract cancelled India ends up spending a fortune on imported stuff for the atleat next 50 yrs I AM NOT AGAINST GRIPEN HERE B'COZ INDIA WILL HAVE TO REPLACE AROUND 300 FIGHTERS IN COMING FEW YEARS THE MIG-27's ARE AGEING AS WELL WE NEED A PLANE THAT CAN FILL UP THE GAP LEFT VACANT BY MIG 21 AND 27 SO THE… Read more »
Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 4 days ago

If LCA dies, how will india become a superpower? Can you imagine a superpower that has to import equipment from a tiny nation for its survival?

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
6 years 4 days ago

Hmmm….

India…military superpower?…why?….one of the poorest country in the world with over a billion inhabitants…with all those problems that situation brings!(huge gaps between social groups)

No electricity or drinking water to 25-40% of the people….newborn female babies gets killed on daily basis…..major health problems…starving..over 450 milion people living on less then 1£ per day.

Give me ONE reason for you to spend your money (a lot of wellfare money given by the rest of the world) to become a military super power? (and don't give me the Pakistan farytale again)

RAT
Guest
RAT
6 years 3 days ago
@ Anonymous said… (a lot of wellfare money given by the rest of the world) WELL FARE so that we can Fare well The money is spend wisely enough and any which ways why are you asking that? DO no give me the excuse of being a world citizen The polio regim medicins do not come for free also we are giving back in Humanitiran Aid to other countries and well as involved in Development of other countries. That is Enough the remaining money that is being spend on purchase is TAX money and money from other income source like… Read more »
Chada Singh
Guest
Chada Singh
6 years 3 days ago

Spending money on weapons that we will never use gives us pride that we can standup to Pakistan. It makes them think twice before they attack our desh. Anyhow is it the fate of those 450million to be stunted.

Ravi Khanna
Guest
Ravi Khanna
6 years 8 hours ago

i want to know which aircraft can fit bhramos missiles. I think india will look this option also as bhromas missiles are heavy and they wnat that kind of heavy aircraft to flow. If bhromos missiles are used with fighter jets then thay also have to test with big fighters in leh that it can take so much load with more droptanks for more range.

Anonymous
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Anonymous
5 years 11 months ago
There is so much of discussion on LCA and cost etc. 1. I have all the respect for Indian scientist. But can we compromise on national security to accommodate LCA? 2. Remember LCA was envisaged in 1985. Finally it may be inducted after compromising on some capability which IAF had asked for in 1985!! We have not manufactured a successful rifle in last 60 years. Even Nepal had refused to accept our donated Insa rifle3. And what kind of indigenous capability are we talking about? Engine is imported, so is radar and weapon suit!!4. As far as money is concerned,… Read more »
Ravi Khanna
Guest
Ravi Khanna
5 years 11 months ago

F/A-18E/F Super Hornet – It would be the best option for india. As india can also get carrier based version for its aircraft carrier. Go for F/A-18E/F Super Hornet india….

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
5 years 10 months ago

Amusing rattle going on here..hmmm.. Well, methinks that our Forcemen know it better… i.e. what suits India best. Though we are free to fantasize the choices as if we are in a pc game..having various fighter options for us. From my side let it be Mig-35 from a good old friend, relying on whose equipments we grilled Pak as ever.

Anonymous
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Anonymous
5 years 9 months ago

It is removed (has mixed section)

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
5 years 8 months ago
After that a Swedish JAS 39 GRIPEN fighter shot down 7 of US top pilots in the exercise Cope Thunder (RED FLAG) the US air force realized that their air forces do not hold the measure. On the US air force's webpage, one could read that they must have F-22 in next exercise in order to have a chance against GRIPEN and that this also applied against all other European fighters.It was also stated that GRIPEN had to be the most cost effective fighter in the world.Years ago, there was talk hear in the US about building the Gripen under… Read more »
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