Wednesday, February 01, 2012

India Chooses Rafale: What Do You Think?















61 comments:

Prashant said...

Thank god its rafale.

1)easier logistics, dealing with 1 is always better than with 4.
2)More mature
3) With UAE not buying it, analysis by PAF and in turn by china is unlikely- relief :p
4) Mirage's fine performance in Kargils is not lost?
5) 5 mil per plane sounds a lot to me.
6)Naval version also flying- deal swetner.
7 Aligned with mirage upgrade- a sense of direction.

Anonymous said...

Rafale the best choise. It did far better than eurofighter typhoon in libiyan war. France always supported india even when we did nuclear test. France promise full TOT. great news for building LCA, AMCA, ENGINES, RADARS etc etc. Rafale is true omni role jet fighter and it can also take off from aircraft carriers. Great news.

Anonymous said...

Just close the deal and sign on the dotted line already! BTW, we should ensure we go for a customized IAF-centric Rafale variant (like we did with the MKI Flanker) instead of the ones currently being operated by the French. An AESA radar is a must, for example, and there are several other opportunities for customization and improvement.

Anonymous said...

Look at the commonalities:

1. Snecma engine..which already collaborating with Kaveri

2. Rafale borrow from Mirage

3. French have more respect for India unlike US and UK (read francois gautier)

and we have low cost, proven operational performance and UAE not buying also as factors.

Anonymous said...

Its a good decision I believe. I agree with Prashant. The requirement of today is to have one good fighter that will add capability to IAF and clear any misadventure illusions from enemies mind.

I saw few ppl saying its a luxury with many ppl living below the poverty lane...but in reality if you compare it to the funds that are supposed to be allocated to the human and infra development are more than in fact many folds.

This deal is 100% required to guarantee peace for our mother nation.

Lets wish IAF all the very best with this new aircraft!!

Anonymous said...

Just to add:
8. France is relatively independent off US
9. Being the first and big for rafale, its a big boost to both India, IAF, France, and Dassault.
10. AESA near completion

Anonymous said...

I think this is the best deal for India given today's geo-political conditions. Rafale is wholly French and as such we won't have to depend upon USA or its partner nations like UK for sensitive tech. Moreover, IAF has had a great experience operating Mirage fighters. I think, we have even engaged Snecma, in advisory role, for ironing out issues pertaining to Kaveri engine...

ANITA MAL KAUL said...

Great News! It also made complete sense for the Indian Air Force to choose the Rafale, which have traditionally had French aircraft in their inventory. Plus interoperability is a major factor as is the fact that the Rafale Naval is not very different from the Air Force version. Just the arrestor hook and landing so if the Navy were also to go in for the Rafale, it would become cost effective for both forces. Good thinking by the IAF!!

Anonymous said...

The GOI and MOD seem to be hell-bent on getting screwed left, right and centre by the French.
1. The Scorpene deal is languishing with the French not abiding by the TOT agreeement, saying the Yindoos are not yet able to master the technology needed for the production of the submarine. The subs are way behind schedule.
2. The French screwed us royally in the upgrade of the Mirage fighters. The money spent on the aging Mirage aircrafts could have been used to buy new fighters or unilised in R&D or on the LCA fighters.
3. With the choice of Fafale as the 126 fighter winner, the French have the upper hand in squeezing as much from us. They have not yet stated fully in any media that they are willing to transfer cutting-edge technology for the engines for the Rafale. Neither have they indicated they are willing to tot for the Aesa radar within a stipulated time frame.
The initial price may be low but what is stopping the French from escalating the price once they have our cojones in their hands. They are no better than the Russians.
Hope this deal does not become another Gorshkov or Scorpeane.

sents said...

Good choice. Still bit of a surprise, as India will be the first export customer.

Anonymous said...

Shiv, are you inclined towards eurofighter?

Anonymous said...

Three times i voted on the money thanks to your blog. Two times consecutively for Rafale when junta were shifting their loyalties from Rafale to EF in the second vote.And, third time on the army chief issue where I voted that he should sue the Govt.

chomskyist said...

my analysis on the outcome of MRCA was pretty spot on, please read my post
http://intelligenceramblings.blogspot.in/2012/01/my-old-analysis-of-mmrca.html

Parameshwaran Venkataraman said...

Even the UK govt is considering buying navalized Rafale. It is a good logistics decision.

Anonymous said...

Terrific decision by IAF. All the best!

Anonymous said...

Rafale is an omnirole warhorse, the best 4.5g fighter. Welcome Rafale.
(Pakistan, China take note !)

Unknown said...

But all aircraft should come with operational AESA & other important techs through full ToT

sents said...

Curious,.. what version of Rafale will we get Rafale B or a new version with upgraded m88 engine. Also what is Rafale's RCS. Shiv can you tell us about these things?

SiddRane said...

shiv can you post the possible reasons for which Dassault Rafale was chosen by IAF over Eurofighter Typhoon ???

Eurofighter looks like a very good fighter aircraft ...... :{

sanjay said...

Tejas with twin engine and delta wing and little bigger in size can become same as raffle because both are from same class design (delta wing)
Tejas can definitely improve from euro fighter and raffle jet (only advantage goes in favor of tejas is its low signature on radar that is not present in Raffle or on Eurofighter i think
but Tejas can become more mature and powerful if its having twin engine (two is better than one)

Anonymous said...

Shivji in BBC Asia section it shows kashmir As different part any info?

Anonymous said...

one question...all 126 will be Two-seater version or Single-seat version or mixture two... with two seat version for training and rest single seat???

Anonymous said...

Snecma not collaborating on Kaveri because contract not signed by MOD. Any one got any news?

Anonymous said...

Its good choice for India. For Euro fighter many people are worried for US connection. But do not forget US delivered 130 plans with in time frame with out any issue. I think india should increase their relationship with US.

JD said...

"Merci l'Inde"....After more than two decades of trying, France apparently has finally found its first foreign customer in IAF for its Rafale fighter jets. The Netherlands turned it down in 2001, South Korea the next year. Singapore said no in 2005 and Morocco in 2007. Brazil appeared ready to sign a deal two years ago but it never came through, and the United Arab Emirates turned down an offer last year, as did Switzerland....Anyways "Vive-la-France".
Typhoon was a much better a/c, more potent fighter. Even it looks much better. I'm shell-shocked at this decision.... :(

Anonymous said...

I would prefer the most stealthy variant, preferably with conformal weapons bays like F-15 silent eagle to carry a payload like JSF. Furthermore, a common engine(Kaveri-snecma hybrid) with LCA Mk2/AMCA with higher thrust would be the icing on the cake. Finally - It should be upgraded to be able to face J20 in terms of frontal RCS/sensors etc with Meteor AAM. The French are costly, should be made to do sufficient tech transfer to drive down costs as much as possible and retain independence to mount any weapons of our choice and do tweaking to suit our missions.

DJ said...

Third world country trying hard to be military power. PAF can be defeated with Sukhois and PLAAF can not be contained by India with whatever. Then why waste billions? Wait 2-3 years and have LCA and upgraded MIG29, mirage and su30

Mr. Ra said...

Now Indians should be ready with appropriate sponge to absorb the TOT arising out of the Rafale deal.

Anonymous said...

The only reason for the Rafale victory is that France has promised to provide nuclear technology for the Indian submarines. Eurofighter is clearly a much capable aircraft than Rafale.

Anonymous said...

HAL will learn little from any ToT. What did they learn from assembling hundreds of Migs, Sukhois and Hawks? They cant even make LCA after 25 years in incubation. Forget fighters, they can't even make trainers!
OFB sat on designs of Bofors guns for 23 years without even trying to make a single gun out of it. What ToT would help losers like these?
I see this purchase as a sheer waste of money. $25billion can be used in R&D, infrastructure, giving our soldiers and police bulletproof vests and NVG, better rifles and what not.
This is relatively a peace period for sub-continent. There is no urgency to buy such expensive and soon to be outdated, non-stealth combat airplanes.
Indian logic is flawed to say the least. How can a third world country be so shameless in spending taxpayers' money to become the largest importers of weapons in the world?

Unknown said...

ITS GOOD NEWS. RAFALE IS THE BEST FIGHTER IN ANY COMPARISON.

Anonymous said...

HOW LONG CAN WE BEAR HAL BEING SPOON FED BY THESE TOT STYLE CONTRACTS? RWALLY SPEAKING THERE IS NO TOT?

Anonymous said...

Each time the Eurofighter has been
competing against the Rafale, it’s the
latter who have lead. Even if this was
never a guarantee of success in the
end for the french aircraft. India
confirms the predominance of the
Rafale against the Eurofighter.
Facing the Rafale, the Eurofighter (BAE
Systems, EADS and Finmeccanica) just
can’t do it … because, despite its few
export success (Austria, Saudi Arabia
…), this fighter has always been
leaded by the french aircraft
manufactured by Dassault Aviation in
all the competitions in which they
both participated. This gives an insight
to the victory of the Rafale, selected by
New Delhi to enter into exclusive
negotiations.
It was the case in the Netherlands in
early 2002 when the Dutch air force
evaluated the aircrafts in competition
(85 fighters). The F-35 Lockheed Martin
was slightly ahead of the Rafale (6. 97
against 6.95) . However, the
Eurofighter Typhoon dragged far
behind with a score of 5.83 . The same
year, the aircraft manufactured by the
European consortium was eliminated
by South Korea at the pre-selection
phase (short list) as part of the tender
KF-X for the purchase of 40 fighter
aircraft . The South Korea Air Force
ranked Rafale first among the three
aircraft evaluated (F-15E Boeing,
Eurofighter) after technical and
financial evaluations and offsets. In
the end, Boeing had won the
competition on purely political criteria.
New duel, this time in the skies of
Singapore in 2005. Again, the Ministry
of Defence of the city-state, which
wants to buy 20 fighter as part of the
NFRP tender eliminates the European
aircraft. The Rafale in the final faces
again the Boeing F-15 E. The U. S. offer
won in September 2005 on political
considerations. The release of
Dassault Aviation is also clear: “the US
weight gives again due to the Chinese
proverb: Bamboo always leans toward
the side that push stronger.” Dassault
Aviation also lost due to the weak
dollar this year.
New cold shower for the Eurofighter,
October 1, 2008 in Brazil, which is
eliminated from the “F-X 2″
competition while the Rafale, the
Gripen NG (Saab) and the F-18 E / F
Super Hornet (Boeing) are shortlisted.
In the end, the Brazilians enter into
exclusive negotiations with Dassault
Aviation, but dramatic turn of events ,
in December 2010, Brazilian President
Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said during a
TV interview, he will not decide before
the end of his term on January 1 for
the purchase of 36 fighter planes, an
order estimated at between 4 and 7
billion.
The last battle lost by the Eurofighter
against the Rafale is recent. It was in
Switzerland in 2011, where the Rafale
is also topped the evaluations. But it
is the Gripen NG[. ..] which won.

Anonymous said...

yaar jo bhi karna hai jaldi karo..bore ho gaye hain is competition se...mera beta jab paida bhi nahin hua tha tab se is competition ko follow kar raha hoon aur jab wo 10 saal ka ho jaayega tab ye plane India main dikhayi dega...wah wah..waise mere dad boltey hain ki is case main main lucky hoon bcz jab main paida bhi nahin hua tha tab unhone pehli baar LCA ke baare main suna tha...hahahha

Anonymous said...

deceptive that they may be the french have a minimum respect for India unlike UK whose PM insulted India along with Jeremy Clarkson on top gear recently. so screwing them over is an added bonus to choosing this deal. if our baboos stop their corruption any fighter deal is profitable. also, typhoon is designed to be more air superiority fighter than multi-role and doesn't appear to have electronic counter measures.

Anonymous said...

Not sure if we are buying Rafale for IAF or DRDO/HAL.

What do you think ?

Anonymous said...

Thx Alot indian's peoples,
First , to not take serious the disinformation of EFt lobbyists around the world regarding EFT air power 5th Gen illusion's lies!

in each foreign competitions and evaluations, rafale outperformed the EFT in Air air and air to ground, this being confirmed by all joint air nato tlp between UK and French air force for years!

You'll get a unique plateform to defend you amazing nation, even more, france being the leader in europe in aeronautics activities and R&D, Space, ELINT, nuclear reschearch etc.. it will make easier ways to share involvments into sensitive technologies researches , and as full partners now, because we need to learn as much from you as the versus !

Welcome into modern aviation world,

regards.

Anonymous said...

IAF is mighty pleased with its Mirage 2000s based at Gwalior. Secondly, the Rafale has always outperformed the Typhoon in every major competition in which they have taken part till date. Moreover it is already fully multirole with an AESA radar to be integrated from next year onwards. It wont be a logistics nightmare as the other aircraft. The French Defense policy doesnt allow them to keep more than 300 Fighter jets in its inventory( max. 240 for the Airforce and 60 for the Navy) and it is destined to replace the Mirage 2000s also.
India would have to deal with just one country ie. France instead of four Nation EC.The French have already promised full ToT with out any terms and conditions. Rafale performed exceedingly well in varied climatic conditions in India and also completed all the missions successfully in Libya and Afghanistan. It is a good decision.More nations might follow suit and buy the Dassault Rafale.

Anonymous said...

very good news ,guys also check trisul-trident blogspot after livefist.

sam said...

Frankly this was a second best choice. The obvious choice would have been to go for the F-35. What we need is the ability to do precision ground strikes against Pakistan and only a stealth aircraft like the F-35 would have given us that capability. None of the aircraft including the Rafale will give us the ability to do a close to zero risk free ground strike against Pakistan without losing aircraft to air defences.

Having said that the Rafale would have been my pick out of all the bidders ie SH, F-16, Eurofighter for all the reasons mentioned by "Prashant" in his first post.

As the poll indicates sign the damn deal and please make sure you involve the private industry in the offsets and keep HAL as far away as possible!!

nipun1111 said...

any hanky phanky by either side i.e indian politician or UK or FRAnce can proove dangerous for iaf.i am keeping my finger crossed.....u all keep urs ....if anything shitty happens here like 2g ....forgot about rafale iaf will be forced to repair old migs lying outside iaf feilds as showpeice

Anonymous said...

oh no, please no "F-35 is the best choice" rant ! Was very surprised to hear the odd arguments put forth by Col. Shukla. We want more platforms now. A bird in hand is worth two in the sanction prone bush.

Anonymous said...

People notice the US support for Pak, but no one complains about the French support to Pakistan. They sell them planes and subs, and are currently building subs for Pak. Why this double standard? By the way we are paying an arm and a leg to upgrade those old mirages, I am sure when Rafale needs updgrage, the price will be almost like paying for them all over again. Abort! Abort!.... which I think is a likely scenario as the price tag is just massive and the elections are near.

Bazza said...

BIG MISTAKE!
Fact 1) The Rafale is cheaper than the Eurofighter yet the only country on the face of the earth that has bought it is India - you poor people. Do you think everyone else is wrong and only you are right?

FACT 2) The Rafale did not outperform the Eurofighter in Iran - The Americans think otherwise and they have no reason to support EF.

FACT 3) You have bought it from a country that was about to shut down the factories and was so desperate they are virtually giving it away.
Come on India, you are blinded by your loyalty to France because they supported your nuclear programme and sold you some Mirages.

You poor poor people.

Bhavin said...

evrytime i hv said, WELCOME RAFALE.

True decision.

Anonymous said...

Hi Sam,

It could be possible that Rafale is the best choice, much better than F-35, something which even i believe.

There are two areas where F-35 is better than Rafale. Stealth and Avionics, which we all know. I read one aussie article mentioning that F-35 does not have all aspect stealth. It is effective in countering radars which operate in X-band of Radio Frequencies. It also mentions that with the development of longer (particulary L-band) wavelenth radars, by russia and even china, F-35 stealth could as well be defeated. The only thing is, these radars are not used as much as X-band radars currently because of technical difficulty (pardon me if i am wrong). Having said that, such radars do exist.The resolution might take a hit with longer wavelength radars, but that matters i believe for air-to-ground operations. What i am trying to say is, F-35 may or may not have an all aspect stealth when it comes to all the radio frequency bands used commonly,( or even uncommonly) in radars. We all know, once F-35 stealth is defeated, rafale clearly has an upper hand as it is more manoevarable, longer range, carries more payload etc.

Go through this article, it is a good read even if it is not representing reality.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-140909-1.html

Regards,
Sudheendra S

Anonymous said...

The F35 don t come before 10-15 year to be mature and operational, it cant fly without its test area, it had strutural problem, bugs, overheat, the F35B kill jsf because blowing cost and delay. The performance is near F16 or F18. the passiv stealth technologie go obsolete in 10 year, because new genration radar intelligence, sensible, networked for jet fighter or ground-air missile. The future is active stealth, electronic way for rafale and may be a plasma stealth partial ot entry engine it's depend from new rafale NG demosntrator for increase stealth features, plasma stealth for T50 or J20. Russian are good advance on it, but the french onera organisation to, in next 5 year it would be used for neuron or may be new version rafale.

Anonymous said...

For information, hear on french radio, the negociation contract would take 6-9 month, mainly for details and transfert technology and india exigences, of course, price are already done.

Anonymous said...

Never ever trust the french- they supply both sides in any conflict.

This is a bad deal on all fronts. The Eurofihter was technologically slightly superior, with even more room for growth, EADS would have given trading links with the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain, rather than just unrelible old France. There is a huge Indian community in the UK and Germany, with important political links and those communities would have been very useful.

Bad Decision.

the terminator said...

It is too early to celebrate the outcome of the MMRCA choice. By our (Indian) standards if the deal fructifies in the forseeable future (say in about a decade) the IAF and India can be as very fortuanate.

There is one thing very common in the Indian psyche and that is being lackadaisical and as indolent as possible until someone with some sense of punctuality and competence wields the big stick. That is not forthcoming from the UPA govt. or with St. Anthony.

The babooos will as it is in their nature push the paperwork as slowly as possible so as to be recognized his/her position which calls for some underhand monetary transfer for files to be processed and pushed in the right direction.

We don't need EADS or the US to throw any spanner in the works to bring it to a halt. It takes only one aggrieved, vested interest party to file a complaint against the deal citing some hancky-pancky which is enough to delay the deal for another 20 years just like what happened in the Bofors scandal.

Unless and until the GOI and MOD fast-tracks the deal, we might as well relax and save our time and energy championing one or the other aircraft.

Anonymous said...

This is BLOODY hypocritcal. Reminds me of what happened after John Kennedy was assasinated. You see, John Kennedy was elected by a very slim margin, probably the lowest in U.S. history at the time. However, when he died,a survey asked how many voted for him, and 80% said yes!

After your Live Fist survey a few months ago where the vast majority wanted the Eurofighter, the results of this survey show the weakness of human character in India!

Anonymous said...

F-35 F-35 F-35 F-35 F-35 F-35 F-35
there are at least 3 to 5 things that F it first two expensive 2 requires special maintainence 3 single engine 4 limited Stealth not in same leage as the F22 or the PAKFA 5 American sanctions one more still being manufactured

Anonymous said...

All this is fine, good, in the short term. But for God's sake, can someone jumpstart the indigenisation programme? It is absolutely vital that India acquires some skills in weapons-building, like China is doing, to survive militarily in the long run. Issues of quality,etc, can be taken care of, if there is a long-term commitment to indigenous defence production.

sam said...

Dear Sudheendhra - Thanks for your post and the informative link. Just curious what would your choice be?

My opinion is derived from the Libyan campaign where the european air forces clearly demonstrated limited capability in SEAD and actually needed USAF escorts.

I believe tha the Rafale is a good MMRCA but frankly the new trends so to speak are Stealth, AESA radar (not on paper) and UAVs. I believe this is where $10-12B needs to be spent.

Would we be confident to launch a punitive ground strike against Pakistan with the rafales? Would the risk perception change? Would that be different if we had bought the F-35s. My answers would be no, no and yes.

It is always a pleasure to run into somebody informed like you. thanks again

Anonymous said...

Hi Sam,

Thanks for your polite and informative reply. Rafale definitely is not as stealthier than F-35. I won't deny this. My basic argument against F-35 stems from these facts

* it is not as operational as Rafale
* it has a huge order book (don't know when would india get this - if at all if it goes for it)
* US won't give as much as france is willing to give...I read somewhere, "Buy US aircraft, and get US restrictions for Free"..

In one line if i have to say "It is better to go with something which is on hand rather than on something which hiding behind the bush (that too which comes with restrictions)".

As far as AESA radar of Rafale goes, i read in some article that the french are constantly in touch with IAF on the current status of AESA radar. I believe it must be in a pretty advanced stage.

For SEAD operations, there is SPECTRA (atleast in the internet community it is famous) and french have AASM (don't whether this comes with the MMRCA package).

If IAF really wants F-35, it should evaluate it just like it did for all aircrafts in MMRCA (including it's proclaimed stealth)..and then take a decision.

Moreover, Rafale would be fitted with enhanced M88-4E engines. Atleast one I know has already been fitted and flight tested. This MIGHT even make it to fly as high as the Typhoon.

Perhaps, for any more orders beyond 126 aircrafts, F-35 should be considered, but these 126 aircrafts should be rafale in my opinion. And That too if it proves stealthier, atleast against radars carried by opponents fighter aircrafts. Ground based radars and even AWACS operating in a wide spectrum, might still defeat F-35's stealth(am not confident on this).

Regards,
Sudheendra S

Anonymous said...

And half of India dOnt have toilets... What a shame to waste money on fighters. What country in right mind wants to invade such a filthy country

Looping said...

A report from the Suiss evaluation can be read at :
http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf

Here is a sumary plot :

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8139/evalsuissecopie.png

Ben Hazi said...

I congratulate the team for selecting the right fighter jet. Rafale is definitely better than over hyped Typhoon. The Libyan operation and the Swiss evaluation report definitely proves the performances of the Rafale. I hope they can seal the deal quickly by this year and in future buy more Rafale.

Ben Hazi said...

Well done and congratulations for selecting the right fighter jet. Rafale is the best, much better than the over hyped Typhoon.
Its been confirmed in recent operation in Libya and in the Swiss report. Now I just hope that the deal is signed quickly and we can get the jet soon.

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