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48 Comments on "Next: Rafale Vs. Su-30MKI – The New Indian Dogfight"

Parthasarathi
Guest
1 year 9 months ago

Sir,
Have read some where that almost 50 % of the Sukhoi 30 MKI's engine failures are due to adulterated fuel ! I am not an expert but probably Sukhoi 30 MKI uses ATF. ( Aviation Turbine Fuel) Now if same fuel is being used in commercial airlines without any problem then why it is creating problem for the IAF. ?
Regards,

Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

Hmmm, that's a question for honorable RM.

Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

Good point @Parthasarathi.

Sujith Gopinath
Guest
1 year 9 months ago

Shiv, but how does Sukhoi fit into the 'Medium' category?

Jean Luc Picard
Guest
1 year 9 months ago

@Parthasarthi – Its simple. Sukhoi 30 Engines are designed for higher performance, its inner components are more delicate and therefore impurities in the fuel damage the air craft more.

Same will be the case if Racing Bikes when regularly filling up dirty fuel will show a drop in performance. Where as you trusty Bajaj Pulsar will run as it always did.

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago
@ Parthasarathi Bcoz of widely different performance parameters the design of fighter jet engines ( low-bypass ratio) is different than commercial jet engines ( high-bypass ratio). That in turn necessitates different grades of fuel. That said, if metal chips in jet fuel has been ascertained as the cause of Indian fighter aircrafts falling out of the sky it points to "SYSTEMATIC SABOTAGE" by ground staff in the IAF.That would not be surprising given the current "COWBOY Culture" in the IAF. Recent revelations point to the fact that the last crash of a SUKHOI-30 MKI were caused because the two pilots… Read more »
Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

Even last three MIRAGE 2000 lost crashed because of engine trouble. So its not just the Russian engines failing. Rafales will meet the same fate when they fall in Indian hands !

Lucky
Guest
1 year 9 months ago

Shiv ji, If India gonna decide to go with Sukhoi then why don't buy Su-35 instead of Su-30 MKI. Even China bought some of those for themselves.
But I still feel India should stick to Rafeal since then India airforce will only Russian made fighter jets only (Su-30 MKI, Migs, Pak-FA in future). India lost the opportunity of hard bargain since when India sealed the deal no one bought the Rafael but now egypt bought them.

Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

In Astertix comics they say "the sky will fall on our heads".

Looks like here one has to say "aircraft will fall on our heads"

Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago
Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

Where is the 'comprehensive livefist report'??

Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

SYSTEMATIC SABOTAGE" by ground staff in the IAF……

Well its better than what HAL. ADA & IOB does …… throws assembled stuff to IAF whose design never changes like that was part of deal

features only change if its profitable for supplier (SaaB, Boeing, LM etc)

SI is mostly Indian but worked poorly because of lowest bid !!

On the name of Desi they are just fooling people/ IAF ……

Jean Luc Picard
Guest
1 year 9 months ago

@Anonymous 4:17

Please spare us from your vile fantasies. It was all Ok till the Bypass Ratio.

Then your fantasies took to …'flight'. An altercation ? 'Sabotage' by ground crew ?

One does not hear of these things in a regular office, let alone a govt office. And this 'TV show' like drama takes place in the IAF you say.

*thunderous applause*

Jean Luc Picard
Guest
1 year 9 months ago
An Medium class MMRCA is NOT the same as a Heavy Classm Long Range Air Dominance Fighter. An MMRCA medium class aircraft is NOT the same an an LCA also. Each Aircraft Specializes in its Role. LCA – Air Defense and Defensive Patrols. It is the first to respond to enemy air threats. Light, Nimble and comparatively easy to fly. Low combat radius. Operates in larger numbers like a pack of wolves attacking its prey. This the Tejas Mk2, Mk1 is just HAL thrusting it on IAF. MMRCA – Air to ground / Air to Air. Air to ground specialist.… Read more »
Abhiman
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Abhiman
1 year 9 months ago

Jean Luc Packard, how do you decisively know that, "Russian engines are designed for high performance.." ?

You seem to be very knowledgeable about Russian stuff.

Let us all know about your knowledge of Russian military wares, please.

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

Those above links are all written by Lewis Page and are some of the worst journalism on the subject you can find they are far from the truth.

The operators of the Typhoon are extremly happy with their aircraft, its pity India believed the costing of lowest bidder in MMRCA.

But you have made your choice you either have to pay or back away from your decision.

Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

First there is no 'medium' category thats IAF mumbo jumbo.

The main diff between the Su n Rafael is that the former is an air dominance fighter while the later is to be used as a deep strike aircraft (better ground mapping radar)

Shiv is it possible for the Su to replace the rafael (with changes i mean)

Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago
Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

To all those talking about Aviation fuel issue. Here is something that should tell you what the exact issue is. (Parrikar said between January 2013 and December 2014 the IAF had recorded technical problems with 35 Saturn AL-31FP engines that power the licence-built Su-30MKIs. The problems were related to faulty bearings and low-pressure oil.

He said metal fatigue caused these bearings, which are incorporated to reduce friction between the fighter's moving parts, to chip or fragment and the resulting particles contaminated the oil flow.)

Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

So where is this report? i dont see any links

Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago
@Parthasarathi, Aviation Turbine Fuel (ATF) is a category that covers huge range of jet fuels.It have so many subcategories and these subcategories have so many types and standards. Military organizations around the world use a different classification system of JP (for "Jet Propellant") numbers. Some are almost identical to their civilian counterparts and differ only by the amounts of a few additives; Jet A-1 is similar to JP-8, Jet B is similar to JP-4. Other military fuels are highly specialized products and are developed for very specific applications. Jet fuels are sometimes also classified as kerosene or naphtha-type. Kerosene-type fuels… Read more »
Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

Would love to read this report, but where is it, don't see any links

Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago
@ Anonymous 4:17, 4:18 and other crap posts et al… ah.. and heeere's Abhimaan the DRDO dodo again.. a) Dear Armchair Analysts..first learn about aviation, aerodynamics etcb) Then shut the f**k up..cause youse all DUMBASS! e.g. Rafale (15-20T) = Su-30 (35 +T)2) Bearing failures because of ATF!! Sigh…3) Cowboy culture??????? Ground Crew Sabotage? @ Parthasarthy.." i read somewhere that.." Seriously.. is this how u ascertain facts and make and influence opinions?4) Heated Altercations..so decided to ditch aircraft?..Ah YOU were in the cockpit with them? or were deciphering the Black Box? or were the enquiry member? Spreading Malicious gossip are we?… Read more »
Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

su30/su35/t50 are heavy class, the rafale /eurofighter/f18 is medium class, the russian equivalent medium class is the mig35, first one ejected from mmrca, to many issues,
comparison between su30 and rafale is idiotic, it is like to compare tejas to F22, they are not made for the same rule and mission, picard answer already on it.

Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

What is the need of having Airforce ?

When we can purchase fighter aircraft then why not pilots ?? & better ground crew ??

anyway HAL assembles stuff in India so why not outsource all the way and keep IAS staff to monitor (The Steel Frame of India)

Having huge IAF personnel is waste of India is waste of money.

Anyway white pilots are better than these brown monkey's who only knows how to copy ?? west – No new contribution to air technology by IAF or Indian pilots so far !!

Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago
I mean I can understand army has 5000 sacrifices in last 2 decades in J&K and East Navy has better experiance in Sea & in somehow by luck in better shape than China ! but Airforce ? it slain its 100's of pilot in Mig 21 crash for no reason other than than leadership was not able to make a case !! Even now they have not learned lesson and fighting on which "New Dress" to buy & how it will look better on that particular occasion ?? Comeon IAF …. do something on your own …. you are an… Read more »
Abhiman
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Abhiman
1 year 9 months ago
Its hilarious to see Mr. Jean Luc Packard lecturing about "LCA = Point defence", "MRCA = strike" etc. How many times have we gone through the same old discussions ! The poor guy is new here. And yet he's indolent enough not to read up and instead, teach the others a thing or two. Not to mention a neatly pulled endorsement of Russian engines, which make his intent and/or origins suspect. He only has the moral candle of being a loyal defender of the armed forces. His ignorance and defiance all stem from that. Mr. Packard, the next time you… Read more »
Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

It is on Janes Defence.

Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

@ Shiv : How is it that assholes like anonymous@4:17, 4:35 can post shit and get away, while rebuttal posts which are eminently professional and reasonable are not permitted by the Mod?

' something stinks…in the state of Denmark

Jean Luc Picard
Guest
1 year 9 months ago

@abhiman- Please read my comment again.

the excerpt reads " Sukhoi 30 Engines are designed for higher performance" and not

"Russian engines are designed for high performance.." as you have incorrectly quoted me.

Jet engines ARE designed for higher performance than your average airliner.

Jean Luc Picard
Guest
1 year 9 months ago
@anonymous 8:11 AM – So by your logic an F15E strike eagle is the same as an F16 ?!!! Hmm wonder why they have other Fighter aircraft in their inventory ? Wonder why F15s are not used against ISIS but F16s are?? What the rafale or an MMRCA is going to replace In the IAF are Mig 27, SEPECAT Jaguar and the Mirage as they are on ther final upgrades now. All Major Air Forces have a Heavy, Medium and a Light Class of fighter/Fighter-bombers. You dont want to use your air superiority Fighters getting shot down during Air Ground… Read more »
Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago
Q Abhiman 8:24 ..Packard?? Picard… ( understand the difference? even if you cant read/understand/google..you have to post your opinion 🙂 ) Sooooo.. What IS the LCA for then?? Please to enlighten poor savage ..Mastah!!Teach Me…. And Pray Which engines are going to power your AMCA abhiman? Kaveri? LoL or your verbal farts? Going by your friggin LCA timeline it will be in 2050 with copied 2015 tech and STATE OF THE ART 1990s Tech ( Thats all you are good for anyway…Cntrl C, and Cntrl V .) And while you are at it learning aviation from video games and movies… Read more »
Abhiman
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Abhiman
1 year 9 months ago
The Su-30 MKI + Tejas combo are all that the IAF needs. The MMRCA just doesn't fit anywhere. For deep strike missions into Pakistan or Tibet, Su-30 MKI is more than sufficient. The Tejas Mk.1 can escort a Su-30 MKI into such missions deep into enemy territory (about 200+ kms). A Tejas Mk.2 will do even better. For air-superiority over Indian and enemy airspace, the Tejas can take on any contemporary fighter jet that PAF or PLAAF can throw at us, such as the JF-17, F-16 C or the J-10. It can be assisted by big brother Su-30, what with… Read more »
Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

Bow: Can't laugh enough reading abhiman's comments. LCA escorting flankers in strike. Its like inzamum standing as runner for AB Devilliers. What utter lack of knowledge.

Parthasarathi
Guest
1 year 9 months ago
@Anonymous 1:23 PM : I am not trying to influence anybody ! I have just raised a question. If you want to answer then please answer, otherwise don't accuse. Anyway FYI. it was said by Honorable Minister himself. Quote : In all, there are 69 instances of engine failure in the last four years, the minister said. Inquiries by the Air Force have revealed that in as many as 33 instances, the engines failed because of impure fuel, in another 11 cases, the problem was caused by excessive vibration and in eight others, engine failures were reported because of low… Read more »
Jean Luc Picard
Guest
1 year 9 months ago
Ladies and Gentlemen, This is my final post on this Article. I did not want to engage in a verbal volley but like most arguments it is about to head towards one. In my last comment I intend to expose Abhiman's complete lack of Basic (im no expert) understanding of Air Operations.(for his own good) Abhiman mentioned, "For deep strike missions into Pakistan or Tibet, Su-30 MKI is more than sufficient. The Tejas Mk.1 can escort a Su-30 MKI into such missions deep into enemy territory (about 200+ kms). A Tejas Mk.2 will do even better." My question – 1.… Read more »
Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago
MANORAMA report on Pune Sukhoi crash … "Part of the blame, indeed, is on human error. Or that is what the makers of the plane would swear, as in the case of the Pune crash. The Russians say that two pilots had a cockpit quarrel in which the senior called the junior “good for nothing” and the latter, a rookie, lost his nerve. Minutes later, the two were thrown off with their seats! The IAF is still tight-lipped about what actually happened. Such 'criminal errors', however, are rare. Most human errors are those of judgment which can happen while flying… Read more »
Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago
Abhiman
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Abhiman
1 year 9 months ago
Mr. Pickard, I've been posting for some years on Livefist and Broadsword. Merely speaking from the moral perch of being a loyal advocate of the armed forces doesn't cut it. We always run into a few like you sometimes. The armed forces can and must be criticized. They're not holy cows. Its my tax money that they spend, and they cannot waste it just like that. Tejas has different combat radii ranging from 350 kms to 700 kms (per Wikipedia, a credible enough source over time). It depends on the weapons loadout. So, these are the distances it can go… Read more »
Raj
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Raj
1 year 9 months ago
The irony in the Indian Air Force is actually beyond imagination. 1. It has a reputed heavy fighter in Su-30MKI fleet. Another air superiority stealth fighter may come in the form of T-50. 2. Its MMRCA fleet made of MiG-29 UPG, Jaguar and Mirage 2000 are good enough for next 20-25 years. Their replacement would be required in 2035-40 framework for which AMCA development is undergoing. 3. It horribly lacks a single engine light fighter because its MiG-21s are going to be phased out very soon. Instead of replacing these light weight single engine fighters immediately with LCA MK-1 and… Read more »
Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

@Shiv
when Abhiman says that LCA can escort Su-30, such asinine comments are published. Raj at5:15 wonders why the IAF is not buying LCA Mk2 "IMMEDIATELY" ..Why dont you tell him why?
Raj : the LCA Mk2 unfortunately doesnt exist yet.
Abhiman, Basanti doesnt escort Gabbar

Shiv, Please allow some sane comments to be published and not such a**holes all the time

Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

Incidentally the (imaginary as of now) Tejas Mk2 will cost almost as much (>350 Cr) as a Su-30. So why do we need a Tejas mk2 which is far too inferior even to the age old F-16, Mirage 2000, and Mig-29?
Why do we support third rate DRDO with the worst drop-outs from all the "Failed to become engineer Doctor etc variety". Their "Scientists" are 50% variety BSc/MSc lot, which is why an aircraft designer from ADA hasnt even seen an aircraft…@ Abhiman..especially for you

Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

@Parthasarthy 2:38
"Accidents caused due to Impure fuel" are not Bearing failures. They are flameouts, Failure of Combustion Chamber components etc.

Lubrication failures cause seizures and are very rare.

Bearing failures due to metal fatigue etc are different and generally do not cause loss of an aircraft. THESE ARE NOT (R) NOR RELATED TO ATF.

Therefore..Dear Mr "I read somewhere..Parthasarthy"

Please withdraw your half baked comments. Also apologise about the IAF Cowboy remark…and Fuck Off and Dont Peddle Shit like "Sabotage"

You and Abhiman are that divine category of "Dont know that they dont Know"

Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago
@ Abhiman: " The Armed Forces Can and Must be criticised…"Please…Go Ahead..(Armchair cricketers have been screwing our Cricket Team for Ages. Opinions are like a**holes..everyone has one, Lets hear yours too) Should we now Send ALL LCAs to escort Su-30s and also lend them to escort F-22 also? Lets immediately suspend ALL procurements proposed (since the whole world except Abhiman is corrupt)…and Abhimaan with his fleet will IMMEDIATELY step in and Defeat Porkistan and Cheeni Kums ( After all he is the Sage Air Strategist of the 21st century) @ Master Raj the Great:….Lets hear Why we are not so… Read more »
Restore
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Restore
1 year 9 months ago
@Anon 12.40 AM, If you represent Indian Air Force and your views are any similar to other officers in IAF, I see a very very dark future for you all. No wonder scholars like Robert Farley are now calling for disbandment of US Air Force. Because the land portion of attack can be taken care of by Army Aviation, if properly equipped with CAS, MRCA and Heavy fighters. The naval portion is already being taken care of by the Navy all over the world. Long range interdiction can be done by long range cruise and ballistic missiles. They are not… Read more »
Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago
@ Moron Restore 4:19I love you Trolls. really. WTF? someone who doesnt have the knowledge commenting! What is with u ppl? what makes u instant experts and critics? How does stupid over simplification like the car example even compute??? A) Are we not the owner as well? Don't we pay Taxes you ass? So what exactly are you doing extra, that makes your opinion the "Gold Standard" ? WE PUT OUR LIVES ON THE LINE….. Your opinion if implemented, will kill us and not the babu, the politician or sadly you or your kinsmen ( What a pity really!! ..everyone… Read more »
Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago

Dont worry folks. The Rafale will never be bought. Wait and See.

Lets buy all UAVs. No Drivers no problems.

Anonymous
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Anonymous
1 year 9 months ago
Arre yaar live fist has unfortunately turned into a lobby lounge for inadept babus n drdo losers.. The iaf guy will obviously get pissed if u call him a driver.. R u friggin out of ur mind.. Its because of babus/ babu lovers like u that the armed forces r in such a mess. Depleting strength no replacement !! Shame on u!! Its common knowledge that babus r at constant loggerheads with men in uniform!! Denying them housing,pension and now even critical equipment seems to be some sort of a habit.. Their only source of enjoyment is like what the… Read more »
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