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34 Comments

  1. 1

    Anonymous

    can you put up the timings of all your pay commission stories being aired on your channel, here, kind of a time-table, so that we can see also.

    And I was told two of the demands are being agreed….PBORs and rank disparity thing?? whats the update on this.

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  2. 2

    Anonymous

    any special reason to have Pranab dhal samanta’s father, Lt Gen Kapil samanta’s, photo at the Defexpo at the Israel pavilion (stall), in the pic above??

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  3. 3

    Anonymous

    Great work Shiv. Can an investigation be conducted to identify these coward Bureaucrats from the MOD and Finance Ministry. They should be publicly hanged to teach the rest of them a lesson.
    It clearly shows the Bureaucrats have become very insecure. Why else would they want to put down the very poeple who defent our freedom.

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  4. 4

    Aditya

    This seems to be a perfectly reasonable note. Im stunned that no national daily has carried it! As for Shekhar Guptas article, whatever he said in it, if he loves the forces so much, why does he essentially end up suggesting that they should be afraid of what the bureaucracy will do them, without offering any solution for what the bureaucracy is already doing to them? I am amazed that things have got so out of hand that every ministry is controlled by the IAS, and parliaments authority lies subverted. IMO, the IAS should be dismantled, as it is disproportionately powerful, and this is dangerous in a service whoses members are known to be easily bought. It is not in the national interest to let such a situation prevail, where the national interst is in the clutches of a service which will easily sell itself to foreign powers for a green card for a secretarys son, or a few crores here and there.

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  5. 5

    Teews

    Shiv, this pretty much sums up my arguements that I was doing in the previous article.

    Kudos to you for bringing out the details and showing everyone the sham that these beaurocrats have done and havoc that they have wrath upon the military perosnnel.

    These guys have no shame whatsoever. When the nation is in peril, these very assholes will hide behind military to save their own behind. Ask them to pick up a weapon and go to the sarhad at the pay that the military are being given by these very same assholes. We will see if they have the balls to do that.

    Apne ghar pe to kutta bhi sher hota hai.

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  6. 6

    Aditya

    More importantly, even a dog doesnt mess where he sleeps. So why is the IAS doing it? This issue needs to be highlighted very very strongly. Even the demands that the chiefs have put forward are very modest. Why is the IAS receiving SAG at 16 years service, 14 years actuals, since they are paid for their training as well? At this rate we should say that a Lt. Col. is equivalent to a joint secretary. Equal pay for equal service!

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  7. 7

    Prasun K Sengupta

    Excellent expose, Shiv. And well articulated as well! Only serves to vindicate my oft-repeated belief: the enemies of India aren't external, but are within and are living, breathing & subverting. Rock on mate!

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  8. 8

    Indian army officer? The group B officer.

    you do’nt deserve to get if you do’nt know what you deserve. At least 70 percent army officers may not be knowing what they deserve.
    If you live like a KOOP MANDOOP live in the well only do’nt ask for moon. firstly start a campaign so that all army officer become aware of the things that how badly they are being treated by netas and baboos then only a revolution can start.

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  9. 9

    Anonymous

    Dear Shiv,

    Thanks for the above abbreviated Note, useful and eye opner for those who missed the prgramme.

    It strengthens my and many Political Scientists firm belief that for the suvival and functioning of a “Working Democracy”, Media must function as an “Instrumrnt of Political Control” albiet with responsibilities. I will not crtise Sekhar Gupta due to my firm belief in “Freedom of Expression”, I only mourn his “Freedom of Irresponsibilities” and the “lies” which stand exposed.

    I really shudder with the thoughts of the ill effects this conspiratorial behaviour of the so called “Steel Frame” would have on our middle level Armed Forces officers deployed far away, isolated, under stress of “Operational Hezards”. This is is the biggest blow to his confidence that even if he loses his life or limb, his consequential interests will be looked after. The senior Service Officers are exposed in one way or the other, to the humiliation that is heaped on him in the corridors of MoD, but the middle level officers still think that the establishment cares for him.

    God only help the Country, which I think it is helping so far, if that young inspired, motivated and having a “sense of honour” is slighted consiratorially by those IAS officers for whom he is risking his existance. The loss of confidence in the sytem, in the Political Bosses would be devastating. It would force the Politicians and the IAS Bureaucrtes to put their own young lads in the line of fire. Elitism comes with due responsibilities and liabilities the word over except for elites in India.

    If Elites in India think of too much availability of “Cannon Fodder” and therefor, calculate their chances of avoiding the consequences, then they are sadly mistaken and fools. They can not ignore the lessons of History how this too much of “Cannon Fodder” outlook led many Indian empires to perish and brought the elites and socity to slavery. The elite who do not care for soldiers, have no right to be in freedom. Freedom and Liberty is earned and can not be long lasting as a result of such Conspirarcies.

    In the Contemporary Indian history, massive, organised and inspired Conspiracy of the Bureaucracy against the Armed Forces was carried out by Nehruvian Bureaucrates in execution of the Forward Frontirs Policy in Ladkh and NEFA against advise of the Armed Forces. Ms Bhatia, Mullick, Koul, DIB, IFS, IPS and IAS craeted their own rag tag armies and executed a policy which was not realistic and defendable. It not only brought the Armed Forces bu the County to shameful and distaerious Consequences. It brought an end of a Graet leader, personality and brought dishonour to the psyche of our Country. It brought our Country absolutely down in the Commity of Nations.

    Consequences of tempering with, Conspiring and Slighting the honour of Armed Forces Officers ans “Cutting them to Size” a favourate line used by every Babu in MoD can be extremely disasterious. India has suffered badly in recent past due to this consiratorial tendencies and behaviour of the Babudom. Kindly keep them off the vital activities of the “Defence of the Nation”. They are capable of bringing shame to the Country without being accountable to be “hanged”. They know very well who gets “Hanged”….it is either Krishna Menon, Fernades or Jawahar Lal Nehru….

    Defence of the Countery is the business of the Politicians and the genrals…Please cut out the Bureaucracies.. That is how it is the world over.

    It has a great urgency attached.

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  10. 10

    Anonymous

    It is sad but not surprisig to know the way our babudom works. Their arrogance is above national interest. Shameful that they are doing everybit to demoralise and depricate the army. Jeopardise its long term recruitment strategy by making it below par with other government service. This fight by the armed forces is commendable and justified from the facts of the case. It should be ensured now that all recommendations are accepted by the MoD. This will be the last straw of respect the MoD can eventually earn. Jai Hind, Jai Jawan, Jai Kisan

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  11. 11

    Anonymous

    Politicians Please Speak Up

    It is well known by now that Four CMs of the States had intervened on behalf of the Police to spoke to the PM to get them a better deal. That is how grants of special Status over Lt Gen was achieved by them in spite of it having been rejected in The CPC recommendations.

    It is Pathetic the CMs of Himachal, Uttaranchal, Punjab< Hariyana, Maharastra, who thrive on so many Ex Servicemen Votes and votes of the families of the Serving Soldiers do not feel like publicly airing their opinion on the issue of Armed Forces.

    The Bureaucracy is busy creating differences on the issue of Officers and Jawans (the announcement the very first day that they are ready to reconsider PBOR pension issue was aimed at denigrating officers and playing the Generals of PBOR). Then they will divide Lt Cols and Generals.(second announcement that Lt Col issue may be Considered) Then they will divide Army and Police (by locking the issue of Lt Gens Equivalence).

    And Finally they will divide the Country.

    I do not know how many BSF and CRPF battalions are being readied Not for flood relief in Bihar but to "Show the Generals their Places" and "Cut them to Size", The favorite buzz words of IAS Community, which has trickled down to the Peons of MoD.

    What moral grounds now exist for the continued existence of an entity called MoD where in the basic aim of the organization is to act and play enemy of the Armed Forces?

    What is their charter of duties? Pathetic. Open the Mod web page which is as pathetic as they themselves and read what it says "It is required to ensure effective implementation of the Government's policy directions and the execution of approved programmers within the allocated resources"

    Where does it say the Mod is required to disobey the Political directions, misrepresent or twist the facts and execute the non approved programs in Unisons of IAS Union to maintain its supremacy at all cost including that of the Country"….?

    Under Allocation of Business Rules, it is no where mentioned that Def Secy will sabotage every thing against the Armed Forces in order to weaken and bring down their sense of "A Matter of Honour" and promote a sense of " only Slavery and Servitude".

    If this trend continues it will be very soon that these psychopaths Supreme Babus will also "show the Politicians and elected Representative their Place" and their peons will only do acts to "Cut the Ministers to Size"…

    I think they have been doing that too….

    It is a shame to allow this institution to continue unbriddled…

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  12. 12

    Anonymous

    Lo Behold ! IAS Grant Themselves More than Military Service Pay (MSP)

    The 6th CPC recommended grant of Rs 6000 to the Armed Forces Officers…

    How could IAS tolerte it?? How Could they accept that Armed Forces Officers be given Military Service Pay and IAS are left behind. IAS is the real Generals!!

    So they quitely introduced “two increment Concept” for approval of the Cabinet in the name of maintaining senirioty over other services and made it into “Four Intrements” in the Notification and IAS Rules showing their two fingers to the Cabinet.

    That four Increments takes them much beyond or in fact double the military services Pay (MSP) and therefore in Comparision the advantges of the Armed Forces Officers in terms if MSP stands fully neutralised. That nullification game makes them senior to others by four years and nullifyies all advantages of MSP. That is the double edged game played by the IAS.

    That brings forth a fundamntal question in front of the country, the citizens and specially for dicussion in media, if the proceedures of “Committe of Secretaries” as a decision making body should ever be resorted to and relied upon. Is not it malafide and legally bad / against Natural Justices that a body of IAS gives recommensation on itself and others with the exclusion of others. What kind of Justice is this.

    Hello! Can any one in this vast Country explain!! Justify this..!!

    Mr Gupta had charged the three Services Chiefs of Considering the presnt setup of the Govt as “weak”.

    Look who considred, acted and have proved their intentions of
    consideration of the “Present Govt of Manmohan Singh” as so weak as to do all this. Does the Govt and IAS jouralist Sekhar Gupta need further proofs. Act does not required proof Mr Gupta. It proves and establishes all intentions. I think that much of basic jurisprudence you would know.

    Jai Hind.(.No Cut it..) .say Jai Babuji Ki….

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  13. 13

    Indian army officer? The group B officer.

    in 1952 chiefs were brought down below cabinet secretary and 1962 india had to face the shame ful defeat.

    the china has already broken all the millitary ties with USA in last week.

    as per the info of a tv channel the voice of india if china ask back the money it has given to USA in form of bond then US is bound to crash

    only god know who will save US and india from chinese dragon

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  14. 14

    Aditya

    The IAS cadre is a lot of fifth columnists and manchurian candidates. Who else would try to actively subvert national security? Why have they been allowed unbridled power over so many ministries? Why are they the only points of advice to ministers? Keep defence out of their hands! The MOD Should be staffed only by services officers. The CDS system should replace MOD. CDS should report to PM, and the service chiefs should form the active command and control of the armed forces. Throw the bureaucrats out of the defence sector before they bring the nation to its knees again like they did in 1962!! Before it is too late!!!

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  15. 15

    Anonymous

    For Aditya: The reason why no newspaper carried the “article” was because it was just that– an “article” by one angry middle-rung officer, not the netire army or even the top brass. It was not an “official memo” or “internal note” as was projected by headlines today. While the “article” makes valid points, which have been reported by several newspapers, Newspapers are not in the business of fooling their readers, unlike TV defence reporters who will stoop to the lowest level and invent “official memos” just to get TRPs.

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  16. 16

    Anonymous

    Very true, above anon, and Aditya did you get your answer.

    I totally agree with the explanation given by above anon.

    These TV channels will do anything for sensation, as that is their survival tactic, and the defence reporter goes to the extent that the rejoinder was a hoax as the army was under heat etc, and the story stands and will continue all week, and the channel is crusading for the services etc.

    All bogus…if the army wants its voice heard through he media, then why only channel was selected for the dirty job, and as much i know how south block functions Headlines would never be the chosen one…either they would give to all for maximum impact and more so to print media, but not just one channel and that too Headlines, which no one except the employees of Headlines only watch!!

    And the services never stand up for any other cause the way they’ve stood up this time, as the question is money, and before retirement the Chiefs want to put and pack in as much, but have they all stood up in jointmanship, been so vocal, defied cabinet decisions on other matters affecting thier men and women, and some of the matters are so serious…wait till i bring them out. So please dont get carried away by a TV channel.

    And yes print people cant fool thier readers as every story needs to be backed up by some proof, some documentary evidence, and this is a serious matter, as the army officially gave a denial in the form of a PIB release. Some middle-level officers are just dying to get some more money, and status thru the commission, and hence targetted a TV channel and ran the story.But they forgot that this act is going to harm them big time as finally whatever they were going to get will also not be given to them now, as they’ve gone to the media.

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  17. 17

    Anonymous

    @Ano at 3:34

    Talk of issues not of individuals. Act justifies the Individual.

    “Middle Rung” , “frustrated” “Not by any “Top Brass”…..and what not..

    Are those the issues..???????

    Do you deny what a Mutiny and Conspiracy the IAS has indulged in to denigrate the Armed Forces??

    Can you provide the answer to unexplainable phenomenon. I have wondered over this question for a long time without coming any where near this answer.

    Why IAS cadre, in Mod or MoF work day and night, every day every month and since Independence against the interests of the Armed Forces in General and Armed Forces Personnel in particular???

    What is that bug which bites you all?

    From what ever I could make out, you all have really not grown up from the Governor General’s “Baboons”. You all still remain under fanciful Colonial slumber and justify your existence as an agency which “controls the Army” or otherwise Army may take over the Country. (original Idea being Army may pursue overreach Campaigns uneconomical for the Crown).

    Wake up this is 61st years after Independence.

    The other culture in this country is that any one who is of any consequences and wield some power acquires negative Brahminical (I mean elitist and not indicative of Caste) traits. Be it Mayawati, Mulayam or Thakare or Nehru or the IAS. Having acquired power plus negative Barhminical traits , generates reactionary and retrograde behavior. That is why these guys coming to power has not resulted in any thing progressive.

    That is why there is No positive Contribution of IAS even worth a single line depatch, post Independence. Every thing you all contributed led to degradation of the society and dissipation of democratic and peoples institutions. Deliberate and sustauined elimination of all Panchayati Raj institutions and peoples institutions at grass root levels by the IAS is a very small example to give.here ten of thousand other examples.

    If the distance between a common man and ICS in Colonial era was ten miles, it has increased to a billion miles and is increasing every day. It is increasing in direct proportion of decrease of your proximity to power.

    Since you have nothing positive to do or contribute to society, why should you allow Defense Forces to do any thing positive ?. That further gives you a pain. You think it degrades your position and proximity to power which is your survival. You all must be worst halluciniators.

    Or you tell me any good reason why IAS is the worst evil of our political system?

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  18. 18

    Anonymous

    @Ano 7.09

    Wah what a threat Galore !!

    Why do not you make all notings and corresponsence between Mod, MoF ans PMO public??

    Transperency man …transperency is what democracy demands tody…

    There is nothing Secret there….

    Do Not worry in a few days that will be out in the Public unless you tear up all documents…

    Which you all capable of….

    Publish those…every thing will be clear…

    Thanks…

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  19. 19

    Major Ravi

    The title is misleading. You never gun for creeps. It should possibly be Army shits on babus!

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  20. 20

    Anonymous

    The DEFENCE services if for the country and NOT FOR BABUS? POLITICIANS.
    so let the nation decide.
    let the Chiefs say those who want to leave the services may leave (Its democratic country )why force people to continue to slog the people in army even if THEY DO NOT WANT TO CONTINUE.
    if shortage of officers then merge units. to make up shortfall of officers.
    have u seen any GOVT/pvt office working if the appontment is not filled up or he goes on leave . why should defence services do that …
    don’t accept addl duties and say shortage of officers.
    Defence services is the responsibilty of the Country not chiefs alone.
    give it baack to tehm in teh same coin or else army will again be in bad light…

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  21. 21

    Anonymous

    I have a friend (a retired air marshal) who communicated the same to me. Did he sms/email to you too? The words, the turn of phrases, even the syntax sounds similar.

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  22. 22

    Anonymous

    Nicely written article which explains all the points clearly. What does the nation gain by all this? All of us including the bureaucrats must always support our gallant officers and soldiers, try to raise their morale and look after their welfare. I hope a quick decision is taken and all the grievances are resolved soon. In fact we must be generous and give the defence people much more than what they asked for and make them happy and they certainly should get more than their civilian counterparts so that the best youth are attracted to a career in the defence of our nation. The first choice of a good student should be army, navy, air force rather than civilian government service or private industry.

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  23. 23

    Anonymous

    This is Certainly bad. The Armed Forces have been crying hoarse that they something more than ordinary to attract the “quantity and quality” of recruits for the soldiers and the officers. Due to opening up of the economy, very difficult conditions of services, harsh living conditions and ill effects of family, near and dear, they do need something more or an edge over others or equatable others.

    Armed Forces have been successfully convincing all pay commissions and the Governments who have been appreciative of this. they have been trying to provide the Armed forces “an edge” or “incentives” or better emoluments to attract better “pay packages”.

    However, it has become a sad repeating story after each and every pay panel reports that, the other Central services, Notably the dominating IAS have been very jealous of it and do not want to be left behind. So after the pay commission reports, they have been busy overworking on methods to keep their supremacy and scuttle every advantages given to the Armed Forces.
    This is not the happening of the first time. They have successfully done it after every pay Commission. Their aim is simple. How can any one under the central government get a little better then them?

    Pay Commission or No pay commission, Government or No government, “Committees of IAS Secretaries” will scuttle every thing that will show any other Service a little better than them.

    The “Aura” they have created around them is “mythical” and “Non Functional”. The basic qualification for appearing in the Civil Services examination is graduation. It is the rule of demand and supply that goads much more qualified people to Compete in the exams. The rules of “Demand and Supply” apply in all walks of our society. There is no dearth of graduates and post graduates getting recruited in the Army as Sepoy. However in the case of the Central Civil Services. the aura of passing the examination is akin to gaining the status of Dwija “Twice Born” in Indian Society. The Government, the UPSC and condition of the service does not demand from them to be post graduates, Doctors, engineers, lectures or other turncoats. The entry age is 22 years and extended to middle age.

    The IAS think that since they have these added supposedly and uncalled for advantages and disadvantages, they are supreme or Superior. That thinking is absolutely faulty and not intended either by the government rules, UPSC or the political System.

    In the Army if someone has joined as Sepoy being a graduate or post graduate which does happen more often than Not, does not mean he will demand to be a General since he happens to be a post graduate. Nonsense. But in case of IAS, this false arguments has become a culture.

    The Nemesis in the Fi the final Analysis is that the IAS and with them the other Central services behaves and act as a very bad elements, mutineers, jealous, saboteurs and Conspirators effecting and demoralizing the Armed Forces.

    The Armed Forces Officers on their part must clearly understand this. The conditions they work under, their ideas of the life, their ethos, their culture, their missions, objectives, their expectations and what they want of the life is so vastly is different from all others. No doubt that they are part of the “Civil environment, culture and Surroundings” and can not be properly “insulated”, still the same people can not also be said to be living as the “civilians” in all respect.

    Armed Forces therefore must sincerely demand for a delink, in terms of Status, Pay , Perks and conditions of the Service. Separate Pay Commission will not invite the ire of all others who act as enemies of the Armed Forces who look at the “bottle of Rum” as a great Perk which must be looted out of the “fauzi”.

    No one in Armed Forces is looking Forward to be Compared with IAS. IAS want such Comparison, IPS will laugh at it. They need someone to look down upon. They need some whipping boy to exhibit their frustration upon.

    It is sad, the Governments have been part of this entire process of denigrating the “Fauzies” unintentionally. his instrument of State is useless for their reelection or continuance. The short terms gives rise to sycophancies, opportunism and Survival acts, bad or good, same like a General of one year tenure GOC does.

    The Politicians are comparable to our Generals so far as terms are concerned. The IAS are Comparable to the Ordnance, Engineers, Signals and ASC or Logistics People. Or the MES, BRO, GREF or Mil State Officers. It does not make a difference to them if “A’ is the Army Commander or it is the “B”. The IAS, thus are Comparable to the the permanent Suckers.

    Therefore in the Final;

    De link From all Central Government Services, Police Forces in General and IAS in particular. Armed Forces are different. Let IAs AND IPS enjoy their ranks and status. It is abosulutely variable. Your and Soldiers ststus is not variable as is evident the world over. let us enjoy ours laong term and stable stsus and recognition. Let us beat the IAS at that. Kick their butts if they barge in. They will, but with no Moral grounds.

    Put your own “IAS within the Armed Forces in order and kick their butts first”. one does not need outsider IAS to do that.

    Start inhouse reforms first and formost…Armed forces have enough..and enough..If the three Chiefs are really very sincere, look at Cores inside and stop this appeasement by “Murga and Mutton”. Give some elan to your “Fighting Man”. and “Yourselves”. You lok after your fighting Forces, they will look after your Egos..

    Learn to respect yourselves…the World will respect you. Learn something from IAS…they can scuttle National Interests to respect their Cadre…I do not say fellow them…What I say, respect you men and officers and your organisation….No body on earth can deny you what you deserve…

    Do not allow IAS to muddle amongst you and your Organization…

    You will soar very high as a Service, as an Organisation and as an Institution…

    leave this Colonial baggage called IAS alone…

    Jai Hind.

    Reply
  24. 24

    Anonymous

    Dear Friends,

    The Problem with IAS right from beginning of the Service to Cabinet Secretary and everywhere else is their sadistic Cultural ethos of "We Control / We Govern" and never as "We Contribute / We serve".

    It is this kind of an attitude that makes them believe that they are "Permanent Executives" as compared to "Aya Ram Gaya Ram" politicians.

    In the backdrop of their self serving beliefs of being the "Permanent Executives", all other services, be it IPS, Defense, IRS or any thing else are considered as "Permanent Servants". That is how IAS treat all others. Others are not part of being "Executives" only IAS is. IAS occupy 225 Secretary level posts in Ministries as compared to a meager 25 by all other All India Services.If they assert themselves to be the "Permanent Executives", on ground realities and solid reasons do exist for that.

    That is a very bad and dangerous situation for Political and Bureaucratic health of our Country. How can our Political System allow such a "dangerous" and autocratic or I shall say, "tyrannical" bureaucratic system to exist.

    I was aghast to hear that IAS exercises "Political Control" and are "Permanent Executives". My theoretical mind replete with ideas of Plato, Aristotle, Russuoe Gandhi and what not could not accept such "blasphemy". However a cool look at the state of affairs makes me feel that what they assert in their "arrogance" is actually true and the ground reality.

    If we leave aside "Aya Ram Gaya Ram", we have other democratic institutions in the Country, such as Political Parties, Press, Media, Academia, Administrative Reforms Committees, Administrative Tribunals, Interest groups, Unions, Peoples organization. How have they failed to have a check on this "Leviathan" called IAS.

    Can any one answer why are they there on Committees which are supposed to exercise Control over them? Why are Employee Association like those of Central Services quietly observing this "Tamasha". Why their occassions protests are not given a serious attention?

    Allowing any particular service, organization and Interest group such a hold is against the Concept and functioning of Democracy. Absence of Checks and Balances is a sure shot way of allowing "Tyranny". Some years ago, Ms Thapars of Eco and Pol Weekly and the "Seminar" mag had carried an in depth study of this Phenomenon and exposed the IAS Tyranny. But it seems the nexus between Emerging Noe Rich, Politician, Criminals, Contractors and Looters of the State is absolutely cemented and difficult to break. It does call for drastci acyions at this stage.

    The IAS have emerged as "Bureaucratic Mafia" in the Country and have become the most dangerous elements for the survival and functioning of "democracy". They have scuttled interest of all others and have not left even the "Defense Forces" of the Country. They negotiate billions of dollars of Arms Purchases and own hefty billions as kick backs. Very soon they will be "Nuclear Rich".

    It is high time solid Checks and "Administrative Reforms" be introduces in the Higher Echelons of the Bureaucracy and IAS Tyranny be restrained by "those who care". IAS has no business to be in 225 Ministries out of 250 Secretary level positions. Let there be equatable distribution amongst all Central and even State services of the Secretary and Additional Secretary level post.

    otherwise this Mammoth will subvert all democratic Processes and all political decisions in favor of the Nexus. It will suvert elections, Law and Order and devide and fracture the Polity as it seems to be doing now.

    Can we as a developing Democracy afford such a Tyranny as IAS?

    Something drastically needs to be done to restore balance in higher Bureaucratic setup or the "Steel Frame" will eat up the entire Body and Soul od the country. They are exploiting every one in the name of "Union Vs States" forces. There are thousands other Central services who are as committed and Democratic as IAS to serve the interests of the Union. There are Certain Institutions like Economic Ministries, Finance, Security < defence, Science and technology post where they have no business to be. These required specialised innovative people and not file pushing politicised Babus.

    Jai Hind

    Reply
  25. 25

    Anonymous

    As long as the politicians need the bureaucracy to clean their shit, the babus will continue to take us all for a ride. Cleanse the political system first…the babus will fall in line.

    jai hind! long live the fauji

    Reply
  26. 26

    pankajjo

    well said anon and perfectly put

    Reply
  27. 27

    Anonymous

    In one of the the other forums, an IAS officer paasionately argued that why giving four increments to the IAs was necessary. His arguements as under can be termed as abosulutely cokaid and "Stupid" but that is what they were.. He said/ wrote:
    :On the issue of parity, I would like to make a point. I will not discuss the various facilities exclusively available to military officers. But the point is a more general one. Many posters here and elsewhere compare the number of years of service rendered as the metric to measure pay entitlement. Thus, they say that an officer in army gets the rank of Lt Col in 13 years. Navdeep counts the training period also, and says it is 14.5 years even though the government does not grant a payscale to the officer-trainees during the training period. Then they compare it to an IAS Director who gets the NFSG scale in 13 years. What is missed out is the age of entry in the service. According to Navdeep's metric, after completing the NDA training, the officer-trainee will start the Arms-specific-academy training at the age of 19-20. Now, the average age of entry in the IAS for the last few years is around 27. So, basically we are saying that it is all right if a 35 year old Lt Col earns more than a 40 year old JAG IAS officer. By this standard, army officers will earn more than a direct recruit IAS officer of their age for most of their career. Remember, I am stating the average age of the direct IAS recruits, it is likely to be higher for IPS and other civil services, and I am not including the officers who are promoted to the IAS. If you include them also, then it is absolutely clear that a average army officer is at an advantage for most of his career."

    well my brothers of the Defence Forces, I ma not be an IAS and claim to be as well educated as my IAS brother claims, but I am well educated, very well exposed kind Courtesy my Organisation and in know how of lots of things. Leave that aside, my replies to that IAS bloak were as follows. I replied to him as my agitated mind could not bear the inadequacies and Stupidities of his arguments. You all judge it for yourselves; If there is a Journalist worth his salt, like I was once, he will picjk on the "good Story"….
    Thanks and Jai Hind
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The IAS Friend wrote:

    "On the issue of parity, I would like to make a point. I will not discuss the various facilities exclusively available to military officers. But the point is a more general one. Many posters here and elsewhere compare the number of years of service rendered as the metric to measure pay entitlement. Thus, they say that an officer in army gets the rank of Lt Col in 13 years. Navdeep counts the training period also, and says it is 14.5 years even though the government does not grant a payscale to the officer-trainees during the training period. Then they compare it to an IAS Director who gets the NFSG scale in 13 years. What is missed out is the age of entry in the service. According to Navdeep's metric, after completing the NDA training, the officer-trainee will start the Arms-specific-academy training at the age of 19-20. Now, the average age of entry in the IAS for the last few years is around 27. So, basically we are saying that it is all right if a 35 year old Lt Col earns more than a 40 year old JAG IAS officer. By this standard, army officers will earn more than a direct recruit IAS officer of their age for most of their career. Remember, I am stating the average age of the direct IAS recruits, it is likely to be higher for IPS and other civil services, and I am not including the officers who are promoted to the IAS. If you include them also, then it is absolutely clear that a average army officer is at an advantage for most of his career."
    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
    I replied:

    Dear Ano IAS Sir,

    It is absolutely well agreed that the steep Paramedical Structure is the root cause of the problem. The solution lies in making it a little flat and wise spread. While the AIS and IPS have intruded in all Deptts of the Govt and ensured all secretary level positions for themselves, IPS have expanded the Police territory. On the other hand, the defense Forces are denied any lateral inductions and any expansion of their Organizational structure.

    Major portion of "Short Service Commission Officers" is nothing but "Availability of Cannon Fodder" Concept. All along the so called responsible Central Services specially the Police have been avoiding the "Idea of Induction through the Army". Why did Bagga not mention that thousand in Para Military Forces and IPS can serve for initial Five years in the Army. Simply because they are elites and not "Cannon Fodder". The elites is so averse to the ideas of serving in the Armed Forces.

    various facilities exclusively available to military

    This issue has been examined by Six Pay Committees. That has been decided on the "Conditions of Service" and not given as mercy. In fact what is given only in the name. Can an IAS Survive on Rs 30 per day as Ration Allowance or on Rs 30 per day worth Rations. The Free clothing provided to an Army man who crawls on the ground and who is required to be unformed in operations is at pathetic scales. Conduct a Survey and you will come to Know how much a Service Personnel spends on his Uniform and clothing up keeping to look a Soldier of the Indian Union. You all Babus talk theoretical. The extra facilities provided to men in uniforms has many suckers of audits, finance and objection raker Babus in MoD. They make the Services Cry even for those meager facilities. Big Contracts of the facilities are concluded by MoD mandarins and Crores made by them. They have not even left the Canteen Services profits and looted the disproportionate share of it for running their "Sanskriti School". That is an Scandal by itself. Facilities like canteen are extended to Lakhs of Civilians under MoD. You all make too much of it. However, the reality is that IAS wants a pie in that too.

    Equation in Years of Service.

    IAS has even neutralized the four years of late entry into the Service by granting themselves four increments. Their late entry into the Service is their folly and not a constraint or restraint. The age of entry is 22 years. If one enter the service at 28 years why should the one who entered at 23 years be panelized. Follow this Norms within the Cadre first and then Pontificate on the logic of it. Within IAS, an officer who enters the service at 22 and one who enters the service at 26 years should be treated equal. First apply that within the Cadre then heap that injustice on others. As IAS you all have not only heaped injustices on others but due to four increments, you have granted your self money equivalent to or more than "Military Service pay". It was simply a Conspiracy that at thirteen years of Service and with four increments in your pockets and having attained Pay Band of the Colonel the "Director will be even senior to a Colonel. Dear Sir, grant some intelligence to the Service Officers too. It is perhaps our "Praarabhda" that you are there and we are here. Give me a ministry and I can run it better than many of you.

    I have very good Answer to all your misconceptions which I shall provide point by point.

    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    A Forces Officer Answer a Civil Babu

    My Dear Civilian Officer Friend,

    Further to my reply which I had to leave in between at the Post Ano !2.56 PM.

    (underline)Grant of Ante date Seniority In he Army:(underline)

    The basic qualification required to enter the Armed Forces as an Officer is Graduate plus one years training. That is the Qualification for IAS / IPS and Other Central Govt Class A Services. Now in spite of that that are many in the Armed Forces who are post graduates at the time of entry with 24 years of age. Do you mean to say they should be given two years seniority. What logic are you extending? The government does not say they want M Tech/ B Techs and Ph as IAS / IPS Officers. If you are one it is on your Volition. regarding upper age limit, that is a political decision so as to allow more OBCs, so called Back wards, SC and ST to enter service as they are supposed to take more time to compete amongst themselves. That does not mean they should be seniors.

    You are asking the Govt Triple advantages. Firstly allow you to enter late. Allow you to earn before you enter and prepare for the exams at the Cost of the Govt. Thirdly grant you seniority over others due to late entry. You must be an absolute wreck even to voice such preposterous thing. Are you all guys above the Constitution. You do not understand what is the fundamental right of "equality". You remain in JNU etc for six years shouting slogans while the young officer in the army is sweating his ass out and risking his life so that you could study to become IAS. When you become you should be made senior because you screwed yourself in life. Unimaginable thoughts and ideas. If Civil Servants of this Country, as you claim your self to be, advance such cocked arguments, you need to be sent back to your college for some education rather than hold a post of some civil servant.

    Army gives two years ante date seniority to the Doctors and Post Graduate technicals because their QR and Educational Qualifications requirements are such that they will have to spent two years more to attain that qualification. Plain and simple.

    What is the educational qualification required to be an IAS/ IPS?? Graduation. Average age for passing Graduation is 21 years. Number of attempts including Graduation Final years attempt are three . So final cut off age for entry should have been 23 years. Well that is how it is for the graduates for entry in the Armed forces. That you all are allowed to fart around to be IAS/ IPS Up to 32 years is a "political and other requirements" and not functional requirements of Class A services.

    I feel like scratching my hairs off.

    Such silly arguments have made the "Committee of Secretaries" to recommend two increments each at 6 years and 13 years of Service for their IAS Bandhus.. The Cabinet has been mislead mis advised and made a fool by IAS subversion. Cabinet may have approved it but it is "Unconstitutional" and liable to Challenged in any Court of law, it being against the Fundamental Right of "Equality". Government, Cabinet or any one can not infringe any ones Fundamental Rights including the Armed Forces right of equality. There are bound to be a plethora of Litigation on this subject. moreover the Parliament can not keep quite over this issue. I am also a Tax Payer and As a Citizen I protest IAS being given four increment just for nothing and no valid lawful reasons.

    Ask Cabinet to Change Basic qualification of IAS to be Post Graduate plus two years MBA. The OBC, ST and SC will eat all of you up and banish that Govt for ever. Ask Lalu Ji if I am wrong. You all are stuck up. Your Conspiracy and treachery is out of the Cupboard. You are arguing a lame duck case.

    Dr Mammon Sing, the Honorable PM and the Honorable FM, PC Chidamabaram, have has been taken for a ride by the IAS "Committee of Secretaries".

    I as a member of the Armed Forces will demand on the logic advanced by IAS Lobby that I must be given full increments and pay up to the Age, a Cabinet Secretary retires, at my superannuation. As I am not being allowed to serve up to the age of Cab Secys service, it is my service disadvantage. If IAS can be given Increments for late entry why Armed Forces not be given increment and full pay for the early retirement. Armed Forces have a very very strong case in view of this. IAS gets four increments without any compulsions for "Conditions of Service" and is also allowed to serve upto 60 years and take home Secretaries pay. Why not on the similar anomaly, a retiring Lt Col be allowed Pension and Pay of Secretary at the time of retirement since as the IAS all retire at the level of Secretaries. This, moreover is due to functional requirement of the Organization and not to individual fault.

    I will strongly recommend the Armed Forces to take up this case to protect their fundamental right of "Equality". Maj Navddep may start preparing these cases which will invariably come up on behalf of individual officers. These are genuine valid and strong legally tenable cases pushing Armed Forces Officers to retire at lower scales that the IAS officers of the same years of Service even if he attains equivalent rank. This is simply outrageous, unlawful and unconstitutional. Other services of the Central Govt may bear this outlandish Joke as they also have similar tarted conditions at the time of entry but why should Armed Forces accept this Joke, particularly when their officers are being placed at a great disadvantage at the time of
    retirement.

    Granting this kind of Increments effects the three Service Chiefs and the Army Commandersand equivallants the most including all others. The secretaries and the The Cab Secy will land up earning more pensions than those even after serving the Govt of India four years less. More Service, less than equal satus and more pension?? What a Joke…

    What rubbish.???? This is plain Nonsense.
    …………………………………………………………………………….

    ell my Friends, Sun Tzu said if one underestmates his enemy one is doomed…

    I have No such intenetions..why Can not some of our Journalist brothers pick up some leads…they have a better roles for themselves than we mortals..
    Jai Hind……My efforts are purely Individual…not connected with any Union or society or Political…. Kindly look after your siociety …if You are part of it so are we… The Armed Forces are Not Slaves…..of IAS Masters….
    …………………………………………………………………………………………….
    Thanks and Jai HInd

    Reply
  28. 28

    Anonymous

    With a weak government, floundering economy, rising terrorism, failing administration etc Armed Forces have a lot to do in this country, like they have been doing in the past.

    Don’t under estimate the armed forces.

    And dont forget, ultimately, the power flows out of the barrel of the gun.

    Reply
  29. 29

    Anonymous

    the truth about this document is out: it was written by an army officer and circulated within the service, shared with some of the media who did not have the brains to use it. but it was too hot to handle apparently. a hunt has begun to find out who is speaking out and leaking these letters, esp to headlines today. secondly, the denial that was issued within hours of the story going on the screen which simply proves how unacceptable it was for the babus that something like this comes out. also i hear that the army had not even finished its “investigation” as to where the document came from when the mod issued a prompt denial. so much brotherhood in south block when everyone is at everyone’s throat 24 hours a day. jai hind to our forces from these dastardly babus.

    Reply
  30. 30

    Rajiv

    I used to be a great fan of Mr. Shekhar Gupta. I am not sure but can Maj Navdeep please send this blog to Shri Shekhar Gupta for his comments and may be an apology of sort. It is quite possible that he was mislead too. He seem to be a genuinly good man. However, in case Mr Shekhar Gupta feels that he was still Right or does not comment atall it is time for all ex servicemen as well as serving officers to boycott INDIAN EXPRESS in toto.
    Rajiv Lakhwara

    Reply
  31. 31

    chandrabhan

    Hi Shiv & friends,
    My idea is not to shock anyone but i feel we don't deserve to exist as a nation state. Nowdays, I wonder whther Churcil was right when he said, " India is just a geographical expression". Don't know but may be he was right. We are downright callous, Lazy and devoid of any guilt.
    We, as free citizens of this country don't accpet any responsibility for the deeds/misdeeds somebody commits in our or nations name. We, in fact vote for these Lampoons. Have we ever tried to ask for a justification for the salaries we pay these babus? Do we ever ask for the appraosal sheet of the concerned babus thru RTI to see if they are correctly appraised? We simply 'Air' our views on web, talk in some discussions and sleep calmly devoid of any guilt as we believe we have done our duty.
    Freedom came too cheap and easy for us. As per certain estimates only 5% of India's population was involved directly/indirectly in the freedom struggle. The rest( including Elite) were busy licking the soles of british. They simply supplanted the british after they left india as only they knew how to 'Govern'. I am disgusted,dejected to say the very least.We have failed to create an atmosphere of accountability and sadly the educated are responsible for it. I think it is time for me to leave and settle down in Africa/Europe so that i will have no emotional connect and won't get hurt. I simply have contemp for these babus( I am so glad that ran away from it) and disgust for the chatter class.
    Nation's become great b'cos of their ability to shed blood/sacrifice and push the boundaries of thought and claim the rights. Nobody wants to give them away easily. Time has come for India to do this or fall into an abys

    Reply
  32. 32

    MakeaDiff

    What I cannot understand is why is there a comparison between the IAS and The Armed Forces? Who has ever heard the comparison of an apple with am orange. They are two different organisations with different roles. therefore what needs to be done is to weed out the MoD of the civilians and put/depute military officers/persons there. They will do an honest job with equal elan if not better.
    There is yet another alternative. Lower the age of recruitment in the IAS, after IAS training send them for 9 months training in the OTA, Chennai and then they serve the various arms and services of the armed forces for a minimum period of five years (okay lets make it two years). Only such people who have successfully completed such an assignment be considered for postings to the MoD.

    One thing is certain – I can gurantee that ANY defence Officerwill be able to handle the job protfolio of any IAS officer, but let any IAS officer make a similar challenge.. I wonder if it will ever come.

    Let’s look for resolution and not enhancement of conflict. two of the methods I have suggested may relove future issues – may not resolve this one. A small price to pay for the unity of the country!!
    Jai Hind

    Reply
  33. 33

    Anonymous

    Kudos to Maj Navdeep, great work, Its high time we all stand unite to kick the ass of Babus so hard that they never dare to do such shameful act ever. Our commanders must not leave this fight even after achieving the pay anamolies issue and futher project and plan out to kick babus off MoD.
    Also, the question here arises that why should politicians look after us? just in the name of nation.. sacrifice…etc all bakwas.. here we need to unite ourselves since netas will fall on feet if we have vote bank… and vote is powerful tool to get what we want from politicians.. so few thoughts which can be nurtured further are
    first, our ex-servicemen should unite and form a forum/alliance or even float a political party
    second, we must streamline or make the voting process easy for serving people
    third, we must grab every oportunity to place ourselves in civil posts like DG NSG, All posts of defence related matters, More posts in IB and RAW, state and central information commissioners, Election watch officers etc and all administrative posts at state leve etc.
    fourth, fight for parrallel absorption in IAS, IPS, Customes, IFS, Postal Services, Anti Curruption Beuros and Vigillance B’s etc
    think and add more to it also this idea should go down well with our commanders only then they can fight in right way
    jai hind

    Reply
  34. 34

    Anonymous

    Over the last 60 years one after another institution has been subverted. The latest fracas is just such an instance. Sadly, the institution proposed to be demolished now i.e. the Armed Forces is the only one left that enjoys credibility with the masses, and invites confidence in a crisis. It has stood like a bastion of living democracy and is a truly secular example. Unfortunately, with a weak central government which cannot govern while rebellions and proxy governments function in places like Assam, Darjeeling, Maharashtra,J&K, rampant violence and corruption, bureaucrats have taken on the mantle of a powerful ruling class. They will not relent till the country is broken and ruined-even when this embroglio is over, the IAS and his ilk will find some other opportunity. By the time the tribe is exposed,it may be too late. The seige to the nation, democracy and secular fibre is within. Sadly it is the IAS, and history will never excuse them.

    Reply

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